advertisement


Central heating controls

cctaylor

pfm Member
Thinking of sorting out the controls on my central heating system.

Current setup is a standard programmer. A room stat in the hall and thermostatic radiator valves on all radiators.

The room doors are usually open on the ground floor to allow our cats to move around to feed, drink and other essential activities. One cat is claustrophobic, and hates feeling trapped!

At the moment I don't think a fancy programmable internet connected stat is suitable.

The hall stat is a pain in the neck, you're sitting and feel cold and find the stat has cut out. Our last house didn't have one. I'm thinking about shorting it out. Any reason why I shouldn't?

Anybody got experience of programmable radiator valves? They seem to be interesting. The ability to set back temperature through the day is useful. We are both retired and it seems like they might suit our lifestyle.​
 
I have never understood hall thermostats - far more logical to have it where you spend most time, the living-room (not the kitchen though).
 
The hall is a bad place to install a room stat also check your rad valves are installed correctly ,they should stick out to the side not upwards.
 
Sorry guys but there really is some nonsense on this thread.

It doesn't really matter where the thermostat is installed but the hall is where it should be installed because the hall rad is usually the by-pass rad and the hall temperature is designed to be 18 degrees C at minus one or zero degrees outside so you simply set the thermostat to compensate for the rest of the house ie do you want 24 degrees C in the lounge, Yes? Well set the hall/room thermostat higher than 18 degrees C and also make sure that boiler thermostat (heating/rads not the hot water thermostat if the boiler is a combi) is set to max otherwise you won't achieve those temperatures when the outside temperature is zero or minus one.

Room thermostats are much more efficient at controlling the boiler and thus saving fuel than TRVs which are simply mechanical valves with a sensor that controls the flow of water through the rad, the downside to TRVs, especially with modern condensing boilers, is that the return water temperature in the heating system can be higher which makes the boiler cycle or hunt however modern boilers do incorporate anti-cycling devices and modulating gas valves but the return temperature water will still be high and the boiler with still cycle but just less because of the boiler design.

Regard TRVs being installed horizontally this is also bollocks, TRVs nowadays are bi-directional so can be installed in any orientation on either the flow or return but you would always try to install them on the flow horizontally because the sensor is away from the heat source however depending on furniture placings or curtains etc then there might be no other option than to install the TRVs vertically on the return, years ago you used to be able to buy remote sensors to get round these problems but you don't have to do that now and also TRVs are basically shit and or only used to control the heat locally ie in a bedroom or somewhere that maybe overheats but you can't control the boiler firing with mechanical thermostatic rad valves you can only do that with a proper thermostat either wired or wireless.

TRVs are overused and frankly only really good for turning radiators off without the valves leaking as happens when you turn off cheap lock-shield rad valves unless you have Peglar LS valves that is.

OP what type of boiler do you have, ie combi or boiler and hot water tank/clyinder?
 
Great theory but p-poor in practice, two-tone.

It don't work here, I want the hall as cool as possible but have a sitting room with more double-glazed glass than brick wall. I set the hall thermostat high and the rad stats in the hall low. Not a real answer, but it works for evenings. If I am home all day, different story, but it would all be cured by having the main stat in the living room. If I used the hall stat correctly as you describe, the hall would be roasting hot.
 
Two-tone the boiler is one year old gas boiler with a Megaflow cylinder

Thanks, personally I’d try to work with the current set up but Honeywell do an Evohome system which is excellent but it’s a bit expensive, you would be looking at, depending on the amount of rads you have, around £800 for the controller, hot water controller plus eight (I think) trvs.

I installed a boiler for a guy recently who had worked for Honeywell R&D for his entire career and he installed the Evo home system and I was well impressed with it, basically you can have multiple zones including hot water and you can program each zone/rad independently of each other however that might be a bit too complex for your requirements.

Im on my phone At the moment but google evohome shop and have a look there, there’s some great information on the site and they will pre-program each rad valve for a fee then send everything out all set up and ready to go.
 
Great theory but p-poor in practice, two-tone.

It don't work here, I want the hall as cool as possible but have a sitting room with more double-glazed glass than brick wall. I set the hall thermostat high and the rad stats in the hall low. Not a real answer, but it works for evenings. If I am home all day, different story, but it would all be cured by having the main stat in the living room. If I used the hall stat correctly as you describe, the hall would be roasting hot.

No you just Have to set the stat to compensate it really is that simple or you go for the system described above.
 
No, sorry, it isn't that simple, I am NOT paying to heat the hall, which, as I live in a bungalow, must be at least the volume of the living room. The hall is VERY well insulated because it is entirely internal so is comfortable most of the time even when the heating is off - very noticeable first thing in the morning at the moment as the heating is off and nights are very cool - hall very pleasant, everywhere else chilly.

Complicated systems are great, again, in theory. Joe Average just gets confused and sets once.
I am religious about keeping doors closed when heating is on, and turning rad' valves very low in unused rooms, it has worked absolutely fine for 20 years, although one or two rad valves are now starting to stick, after 20 years.
 
No, sorry, it isn't that simple, I am NOT paying to heat the hall, which, as I live in a bungalow, must be at least the volume of the living room. The hall is VERY well insulated because it is entirely internal so is comfortable most of the time even when the heating is off - very noticeable first thing in the morning at the moment as the heating is off and nights are very cool - hall very pleasant, everywhere else chilly.

Complicated systems are great, again, in theory. Joe Average just gets confused and sets once.
I am religious about keeping doors closed when heating is on, and turning rad' valves very low in unused rooms, it has worked absolutely fine for 20 years, although one or two rad valves are now starting to stick, after 20 years.

The main purpose of a room thermostat is to stop the boiler cycling ie save fuel it isn’t a comfort device although that’s what they’re used for in the main however that’s why they’re installed in the hall usually.

However If you have a combi boiler installed then buy a programmable wireless room stat and fit it or get someone else to install it you can use them in any part of your house ie you can carry them to any room.

Wolsely do one (Center brand) for about £70 they’re excellent I’ve one mysel.
 
Last edited:
I have to agree with Vinny about this, even if the hall is a cold room, there is no harm in leaving it cold.

In these times when we should all be looking to avoid un-necessary CO2 emissions, the idea of heating empty and unused rooms would appear to be not only wrong but verging on madness.

I have always thought that central heating was a decadent and silly idea. Heat the room you are in to a reasonable temperature to keep it healthy and leave it at that.

Best wishes from George
 
I too feel that its about time someone invented a better form of central heating than pumping hot water along a load of pipes.
I believe ducted hot air is the norm in USA, no idea why it hasn't caught on in UK.
There is underfloor heating of course, but that's pretty much only for new builds.

My hall thermostat is a nightmare and we're forever overriding it because it's shut off too soon or too late so the temperature fluctuates between 17 and 20 degrees.
 
I too feel that its about time someone invented a better form of central heating than pumping hot water along a load of pipes.
I believe ducted hot air is the norm in USA, no idea why it hasn't caught on in UK.
There is underfloor heating of course, but that's pretty much only for new builds.

My hall thermostat is a nightmare and we're forever overriding it because it's shut off too soon or too late so the temperature fluctuates between 17 and 20 degrees.

we have had warm air heating here it’s pish no one wants it anymore.

you guys really ought to educate yourselves regarding room thermostats and central heating controls.

I’m repeating myself here but a room thermostat isn’t a comfort device it’s primarily used to turn the boiler off on an on heating period ie save fuel. If your house is cold when the heating is on then the stat is doing it’s job.
 
we have had warm air heating here it’s pish no one wants it anymore.

I can remember a friends family had this in their big house back in the late 60's and it was awful. It dried the air out so badly that wood was splitting etc. Its impact on me was equally vile; I would usually end up with a streaming nose every time I went there. Since then I have experienced warm air heating in a few buildings and I am still not a convert.
 
I can remember a friends family had this in their big house back in the late 60's and it was awful. It dried the air out so badly that wood was splitting etc. Its impact on me was equally vile; I would usually end up with a streaming nose every time I went there. Since then I have experienced warm air heating in a few buildings and I am still not a convert.

spot on and not only those issues it’s inherently dangerous cause the WAU (heater) can pump carbon monoxide round the vents if the WAU heat exchanger cracks and especially if they’re not regularly serviced that issue gets missed and then it’s too late.

The reason we have had central heating systems in this country is because it works despite the obvious limitations of the general public to get their collective heads round how it works.

I regularly go to customers with all singing all dancing boilers and controls and every radiator trv is turned off the room stat is turned up the boiler stat is turned down and the boiler is on a timer seven days a week so all the boiler is doing is heating the pipe work for hours a day and consequently the heating bills are horrendous.

I have one customer who was doing this and effectively using a 20 kw boiler to heat a 3kw hot water cylinder for seven hours and 365 days a year, his gas bills were £1500 per annum.
 
Right or wrong, the economics of changing boilers just do not add up. Especially so if you are careful/frugal/tight/at work all day (i.e. heating fuel usage is low anyway).

My boiler is around 25 years old - it was not very old when I moved in 20 years ago. It consists of a burner, a heat-exchanger and a gas control valve. The gas control valve failed about 3-4 years ago - I figured that out but the local gas fitter had to check (free call-out). I then hunted around for a new valve and found one for £50? £100? cheaper than the gas fitter - something like £180. The fitter charged me £50 to fit and test. All being well the boiler will see out another15-20 years.

While he was fitting the boiler, I asked about the economics of fitting a new one - he suggested that it didn't add up. He also said that as a general rule, in his experience, expensive boiler last roughly twice the time of cheap ones - he smiled when I pointed-out that "expensive" boilers are ROUGHLY twice the price of "cheap" ones.

If I had a £ for every person that has told me that it is cheaper to keep heating permanently on, so it doesn't have to start from cold when it is actually needed, I'd be a very rich person.

The boiler here isn't on the timer yet, and won't be until we get a proper cold snap - it just gets put on a one hour boost when an evening is especially chilly at the moment.
 
Right or wrong, the economics of changing boilers just do not add up. Especially so if you are careful/frugal/tight/at work all day (i.e. heating fuel usage is low anyway).

My boiler is around 25 years old - it was not very old when I moved in 20 years ago. It consists of a burner, a heat-exchanger and a gas control valve. The gas control valve failed about 3-4 years ago - I figured that out but the local gas fitter had to check (free call-out). I then hunted around for a new valve and found one for £50? £100? cheaper than the gas fitter - something like £180. The fitter charged me £50 to fit and test. All being well the boiler will see out another15-20 years.

While he was fitting the boiler, I asked about the economics of fitting a new one - he suggested that it didn't add up. He also said that as a general rule, in his experience, expensive boiler last roughly twice the time of cheap ones - he smiled when I pointed-out that "expensive" boilers are ROUGHLY twice the price of "cheap" ones.

If I had a £ for every person that has told me that it is cheaper to keep heating permanently on, so it doesn't have to start from cold when it is actually needed, I'd be a very rich person.

The boiler here isn't on the timer yet, and won't be until we get a proper cold snap - it just gets put on a one hour boost when an evening is especially chilly at the moment.

the only way to save money/fuel with a central heating system is for the boiler to be off and that is what a room thermostat is trying to do.

you also have to insulate the house so that the heating is off.

leaving a heating system on 24 hours a day only works efficiently with a condensing boiler and really good insulation or with an air source heat pump or a ground source heat pump however regarding the condensing boiler for it to condense all of the time it’s on the boiler thermostat has to be set to 54 degrees c which is the dew point of natural gas however for most people that means that you will only be raising the ambient air temp in the house by about one degree with the surface temperatures of the rads cool and for most people that set up isn’t acceptable cause they associate warm temperatures like 70 degrees with their holidays and as a result want to cut about their house in the winter like they do in the middle of a Spanish summer.
 
I used to work in a factory where lots of product testing had to be done 20C and 60% RH, so there was a dedicated room - cool in summer, warm enough in winter if you aren't sat doing nothing.
A thick shirt or jumper is cheaper then an on-going gas usage, I suspect that the living room is around 22C and the rest as low as I can get it without it striking cold when I enter the room - 16-17-18C?????? I cannot be doing with warm bedrooms either.
The only room here on the warm side is the bathroom - if I have tweaked a lower back muscle getting out of the shower into a cold bathroom once...………………………

I have no idea what the heating trade means by a gas dew point being 54C, but it ain't in any scientific sense. Take a look on Wiki to see what dew point really is. For instance, air of 20C 60% RH has a dew point of 12C.
 


advertisement


Back
Top