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Cartridges with that *coherence* thing... (sorry, kinda long)

naimnut

naimnut

Deep in the Mines of Soul
Once you hear "better", you can't un-hear it. Oh, what a slippery slope it is to hear better gear. Ask me how I know.

Ok. First - I've recently rolled new tubes into my phono stage. Vintage Amperex JAN 7308s and also tried the white-label PQ 7308s. Holy smokes. I've got a whole new phono stage. So that's what everybody's been talking about. Holy cow. I get it.

Enough about that. I'll get right to the point. I just borrowed (and soon expect to buy) a friends Shelter 901 cartridge. It's an original Mk I, so it's really old. But it's been sitting unused for many years. Initially I was very skeptical - wouldn't the suspension have dried out? Maybe it wouldn't sound very good.

The 901 replaced my Dynavector 17D3 on my lowly Jelco 750L/Garrard 401. Holy... uh... where do I start? The Dynavector has been very good. But the Shelter makes sense of what's going on in the recording on a whole 'nother level. Finally, I can hear the musical sense of *why* the musicians are doing what they are doing. All of a sudden I *get* what reviewers and others have been talking about for years. Until I heard it I *thought* I understood it, but now I really get it. It's not "musicality" at the expense of detail. The fine detail is there. But it's revealed in a way that I've never heard before from *any* vinyl playback system.

And I suppose, like other characteristics, this coherence thing also exists on higher and higher levels with better and better cartridges. That should probably read "more and more expensive cartridges".

So my question is to those of you who've trod this path before me. Especially those of you who've used the Shelter 901. Given the unknown hours on the specimen I'm using I'm wanting to learn about other cartridges that possess this quality of coherence. In your experience, what other cartridges do this?
 
I went 901 to Shelter 9000. Very worthwhile change and one I was happy with for a few years. This year I treated myself to a Hana Umami and once again I was amazed at the improvement. I can imagine some people may find it a bit smooth or slow but to me I think it just sounds right.
 
I suspect you'll find plenty of carts that'll offer what you're looking for, at a price... a tricky subject as everyone's setup is different and it's rarely possible to try them and hear what they do in a known context before purchase. FWIW Hana ML worked really nicely in a Jelco 750L for me

I really enjoyed my time with a Jelco 750L. Changing it out for a Funk FX3 was a big Wow moment for me, what a difference, resolution rocketed and in a most natural way. Wouldn't have credited that a tonearm could make such a difference.

I'm sure you'll enjoy listening to the system as is and the changes wrought by a new cartridge. If you want to really hear what the carts can do, even the 17D3, explore a change in tonearm when budget permits.
 
@deaf
Yeah. I believe it. When the Ekos came out, right after I'd bought my LP12/Ittok in 1990, I auditioned it and immediately heard the difference. Would have loved to buy one but... the price. Ouch.
Thanks for the recommendation on the Funk FX3 and the tip on the Hana ML.

@Eaun
Thanks for sharing your experience and recommendations. Geez some of these cartridges are expensive.
 
Don’t know about cartridges but I had exactly the same experience as deaf with the Funk FXR. I’ve enjoyed different cartridges for different reasons but I’ve never had that kind of “Ah ha!” moment moving from one to another. Nagaoka MP500 sounds cohesive to me, in that everything seems to hang together in a well balanced way, but maybe that’s something different.
 
Seanm said:
Nagaoka MP500 sounds cohesive to me, in that everything seems to hang together in a well balanced way, but maybe that’s something different.
Click to expand...
I listened to needledrops of side one of Santana - Abraxas the other day made with an MP500 and a current AT MM with a microline stylus (forget the model). I think the tt was a Michell Orbe. The Nagoaka drop held me enthralled to the end. Pure “musical” reproduction with no hi-fi considerations distracting me. It “just worked”. The FR and tonal balance felt natural and the music had a satisfying sense of body.

OTOH, with the AT I found the first track plenty. It had a lighter bass and was thinner sounding, and had me thinking more about the cartridge’s performance than the musical one.
 
I’ve had a lot of cartridges over the years (there’s a list in a recent thread on the subject) and I think if I had to pick winners from fairly recent memory it would be the MP-500 and the Audio Technica AT33 PTG. Both are seriously good and lack that area of weakness so many really good carts have, e.g. I love the DL-103, it is a fantastic way to play a blue note, but it couldn’t get through the end of an opera album to save it’s life, that spherical tip just can’t trace densely packed end-of-side groove modulation. The Lyra Lydian B being another example, absolutely spectacular dynamically on the right record, but also spotlit and attention-seeking.

The last thing I want in a system is an attention seeking component. The Nag and AT carts I mention just get the hell out of the way and play the record, and do so in a thoroughly coherent and balanced manner. Obviously one can argue much of this is system-matching, and these match my system now, and of a decade or so ago. MM carts in particular take some real matching, e.g. I borrowed an Audio Technica AT150MLX from Rob ages ago and could tell it was a simply stunning MM cart, but with the phono stage I had at the time (and I’d find it even harder now with the Verdier preamp) I just couldn’t get it’s tonal balance even close, just way, way too thin and bright. Yet it tracked better than anything I’d owned for decades, maybe since that ancient high-compliance M20FL in the low mass AT1120 arm I had back in the early ‘80s. So much is about matching and I certainly felt the MP-500 is the last piece in my my current system. It is perfectly happy in the medium mass 3009, loves the drive, heft and solidity of the 124, and seems perfectly happy with whatever capacitive loading the Verdier MM stage provides (and modern Ortofons, ATs really aren’t).

PS If I’ve learned one thing about turntables in the past 45 years it is not to ignore the math. You need to use a cartridge in the correct operating environment, both mass/compliance and electrically.
 
Tony L said:
PS If I’ve learned one thing about turntables in the past 45 years it is not to ignore the math. You need to use a cartridge in the correct operating environment, both mass/compliance and electrically.
Click to expand...

Absolutely this. Most cart's will work in most arms, but to get the max. out of your cart.(esp. exp. m/coil), synergy is paramount. Can't comment on the Shelter, though I've read up on many in the past; maybe it had more synergy with your Jelco or was simply a more expressive cart.

Every cart. bar one Ortofon that I've had in the past 40+ years, from Karma to Proteus via many upmarket coils, has been marvellous, but each change was probably better, even taking into account how the brain quickly adapts.

As deaf (what a pseudonym !:)) says above, the arm is as important as the cart and not just in its compatibility.
 
@Tony L

I have to disagree with you about the Denon DL-103. Mine is bolted to a Pioneer PL71 so a “heavy arm”. The combo works very nicely indeed. I would certainly argue that there is some sort of “synergy” going on but the reality is probably that it’s a very good mechanical pairing (I don’t really understand compliance etc..).

As for end of side distortion, well there isn’t any. One of my favourite test tracks is Rush’s “Jacobs Ladder” which has a thunderous ending. I was actually a bit shocked the first time I heard it on the 71 as I was expecting the usual distortion and there wasn’t any !

I do listen to the occasional bit of opera and the same result. I’m actually starting to wonder how or if there is room for improvement. There are many variants of the 103 and I’ve yet to explore any of them - perhaps I don’t need to.
 
Thanks, all, for sharing your thoughts. They've stimulated me to share a few more ideas about what I meant by the term "coherence". Probably you've all already got it, but here goes anywhere.

I was listening to a first pressing of the Gary McFarland album, Point of Departure. It's a lovely album. The track Sandpiper, starts with some very nuanced percussion. Someone is tapping on a metal bell or cymbal. Then someone starts tapping on or shaking something else. I've listened to this track countless times. With the Shelter it was one of those all-of-a-sudden so that what's going on moments. It was like I'd never heard it before. It's "Ah, yes. So that's what they're doing and that's why they're doing it" kinds of moments. Where you get the impression that one musician has just nodded or signaled to another member of the group that it's time to do that thing they did during the rehearsal, you know - "When I do this, when I nod, you come in with that thing we worked out the other night when we were playing at such-and-such..."

From the first moments of dropping the needle the overwhelming impression is one of "jeez, that instrument just sounds so beautiful". Doesn't matter what it is. First time I heard it my buddy and I were auditioning a Technics SP-10 Mk. 2 with Grace 560L he was considering. The album was a sonically undistinguished pressing of a jazz album by Sahib Shahib. Suddenly we're surrounded by this frickin' beauty. The tone of the tenor just sounds so... real, so live, so in the room. My words probably sound like cliches. But there you are.

Right now I'm listening to a 7" 45 of the Blackbyrds, a somewhat sentimental instrumental of the tune All I Ask that captures the band in a mellow, reflective mood. This track doesn't seem to be on any of their albums, just the B-side of the single Flyin' High. Surface noise on this ancient pressing has dropped to near zero. Not sure who is playing the harmonica (and you wouldn't think a harmonica with strings could sound "right" on a soul/R&B tune but it's perfection.)

Another case in point. I'm now listening to John Fahey, Volume 2 Death Chants, Breakdowns & Military Waltzes, the track Sunflower River Blues. Fahey's guitar tone and timbre are just so.... right. Geez. He sounds so human. Like I'm listening to him in a small cafe.

Having heard this, I'm now kinda' spoiled. I'm now re-reading as many historic cartridge reviews by "trusted reviewers" (starting with the sorely-missed Art Dudley), seeking out references to this kind of "musicality". It's clear from all of your greatly appreciated comments that there are other cartridges out there that do this thing. And for your sharing I am very grateful.
 
O.p, keep well away from Koetsu reviews if you value your hard-earned. Not familiar with any of your music and every venue displays a different presentation and received impression. There are just too many cart's out there, each preferring slightly different ancillaries, but not difficult to narrow down a preference list vis a vis the arm and ph/stage etc. that you have.
 
Stemcor said:
I have to disagree with you about the Denon DL-103. Mine is bolted to a Pioneer PL71 so a “heavy arm”. The combo works very nicely indeed. I would certainly argue that there is some sort of “synergy” going on but the reality is probably that it’s a very good mechanical pairing (I don’t really understand compliance etc..).
Click to expand...

I have heard this so many times from fans of the DL-103, yet when I listen to the exact same system I can hear the distortion! The science backs me up too; this is tracing distortion, not tracking distortion, i.e. the size of the tip simply being too large to negotiate the correspondingly narrower groove modulation at end of side.

PS This doesn’t stop the 103 being a good cart by any means, it just isn’t one I could live with in a single cart system. I’d happily have one on a second arm.
 
Stemcor said:
@Tony L

I have to disagree with you about the Denon DL-103. Mine is bolted to a Pioneer PL71 so a “heavy arm”. The combo works very nicely indeed. I would certainly argue that there is some sort of “synergy” going on but the reality is probably that it’s a very good mechanical pairing (I don’t really understand compliance etc..).

As for end of side distortion, well there isn’t any. One of my favourite test tracks is Rush’s “Jacobs Ladder” which has a thunderous ending. I was actually a bit shocked the first time I heard it on the 71 as I was expecting the usual distortion and there wasn’t any !

I do listen to the occasional bit of opera and the same result. I’m actually starting to wonder how or if there is room for improvement. There are many variants of the 103 and I’ve yet to explore any of them - perhaps I don’t need to.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it sounds excellent in many areas, but the tip geometry on the 103 cannot defy the laws of physics - it will have significant and audible IGD, in any arm, on any deck and regardless of set-up.
 
@Tony L @Robert

Many thanks for your posts. I’m always interested in improving my record player but I do wonder if a “posher” variant of the 103 will actually be better than what I currently have. I could get some gains but lose in other areas. Cartridges are such a pain to audition.
 
Yes, this.

And in many ways they're like getting married to someone you've only met on the internet.

Or read about on an internet forum.
 
Markustubesnow said:
But the Shelter makes sense of what's going on in the recording on a whole 'nother level. Finally, I can hear the musical sense of *why* the musicians are doing what they are doing. All of a sudden I *get* what reviewers and others have been talking about for years. Until I heard it I *thought* I understood it, but now I really get it.
Click to expand...
This is how I feel about certain HiFi products that make all the difference to my enjoyment of music.

Slightly off track but I wonder if you are also an 'extreme fundamental listener' when doing this short test from a German university: -
https://www.musicandbrain.de/kurztest.html

The purpose is to determine if you use more of the left or right hand side of your brain when listening to music. You listen to two notes and answer whether you hear hi-low or low-hi.
 
Tony L said:
I’ve had a lot of cartridges over the years (there’s a list in a recent thread on the subject) and I think if I had to pick winners from fairly recent memory it would be the MP-500 and the Audio Technica AT33 PTG. Both are seriously good...

...The Nag and AT carts I mention just get the hell out of the way and play the record, and do so in a thoroughly coherent and balanced manner...
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Several folks on this thread have mentioned the AT33PG and Nagaoka MP-500. Both these cartridges are down in the "reasonable - I don't have to give up regular meals for a while" price-range.

Anybody here compared 'em to some of the high-priced spreads?
 
Markustubesnow said:
Anybody here compared 'em to some of the high-priced spreads?
Click to expand...

I’ve never been a really big spender when it comes to carts, the most expensive I've owned were a Dynavector XX1L, and a Lyra Lydian B. What sort of price are you thinking of? I certainly feel more comfortable in the £400-700 range than droping >£1k on something that wears out and is so easy to damage.

PS The MP-500 is a £700+ cart these days, though one can source it far cheaper direct from Japan, styli even more so (I paid £180 delivered for a spare recently from eBay, though it thankfully dodged the tax man somehow).
 
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