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Cartridge loading question.

oceanobsession

pfm Member
Hi all im a little confused , my pre amp has a mm and mc phono stage these
are the specs,

Phono Stage
MM sensitivity 2.5mV

Impedance 47k

Distortion -100dB

Mc sensitivity 100uV

Impedance 100ohms

Distortion -80dB

Now some mc cartridges say benz micro ace,work from 200ohms to 47k does
that mean i could use mm on my phono stage to run this cartridge or is it only
for moving magnet only.
 
Well, as it looks like the Micro Ace is available in a range of outputs, so it depends which one you have. However, if it is the low output version it just won't have enough output to run it into the MM stage of your amp.
 
This is the spec for the high output benz micro ace








Specifications:
Output Voltage: 2.5mV
Cantilever: Solid Boron, 0.28mm
Stylus: Nude line-contact diamond, mirror polished
Stylus tip radius: 6x40 um
VTA: 20 degrees
Coil: Pure Iron Cross
Weight: 8.8 grams
Internal Impedance: 12ohms
Frequency Response: 20-20,000 Hz
Channel Balance: Better than 0.5db
Channel Separation: Better than 35db at 1kHz
Tracking force: 1.8-2 grams
Recommended loading: 200-47,000 ohms
Break-in period: 40 hours
2 Year Warranty

Its the high output benz micro ace, its output voltage is 2.5mv which is the same as my phono stage sensitivity and the recomended loading is from 200-47,000 ohms which is 47k i think so its full loading
if you like, is the only difference between mm and mc impedence, i thought they had different electronics im confused.
 
Hi all im a little confused , my pre amp has a mm and mc phono stage these
are the specs,

Phono Stage
MM sensitivity 2.5mV

Impedance 47k

Distortion -100dB

Mc sensitivity 100uV

Impedance 100ohms

Distortion -80dB

Now some mc cartridges say benz micro ace,work from 200ohms to 47k does
that mean i could use mm on my phono stage to run this cartridge or is it only
for moving magnet only.


You can load a MC with anything, and you can play a MC with sufficient output int a MM stage without any concern. Nothing will be damaged.
Key to how well these things work and some general points:

- Sufficient gain to avoid noise but not so much gain that volume is difficult to control or the phono stage clips.
- Using very low impedance loading on a MC. These cartridges have low internal impedance and inductance which makes them very load tolerant. The greatest audible effects come when driving them into heavy loading, say <50 ohms.
- Shunt capacitance seen by a MM cartridge. In all but a few cases this hugely impacts performance.

Two other points to consider:

When driving a MM stage with a low-ish output MC cartridge it is often assumed that noise will be high. While the increased gain will raise the the noise floor, the low impedance of the MC cartridge will provide some reduction, so where a MC has a high output (but is still classified as a standard MC) it might work fine into a normal MM stage.

Distortion from phono cartridges is high - from all of them.
THD of >10% is very common at HF so don't get too hung up on stellar phono stage distortion specs. It is likely to be marketing nonsense.
By far the most important aspects are:

- RIAA accuracy. Surprisingly variable given that this is supposed to be a 'standard'. It is responsible for many audible differences between stages. Anything other than adhering to the standard is wrong.
- Noise. Phono stages will always generate more noise than line. It can be audible at higher listening levels so it makes sense to minimise it. Some modern stages are surprisingly noisy - they don't need to be.
- LF response. Often overlooked, the RIAA standard allows for optional LF filtering in order to reduce the effects or record warps exciting the cartridge/arm resonance (and reduce rumble in the early days). This can effect the sound in two ways. Firstly, some stages start to roll-off prematurely and so sound bass light. Secondly, pumping lots of sub 20Hz into your system can have unwanted consequences. It eats amplifier power, raises loudspeaker distortion because the bass driver coils and moving in and out of their range of optimum linearity, and if you use a valve amplifier it will stress the output transformers - possibly casing premature saturation.
 
Thanks robert and ynwoan for your help,

would i be correct then to think that
my mm phono stage will run the benz micro ace high output model.
 
47,000 = 47k, so yes, that cartridge is suitable for MM inputs and, as it offers 2.5mV output, it ought to be just about loud enough too (as long as you are happy to use most of the volume control). It would, however, possibly overdrive many MC inputs leading to serious distortion.

Use it with your MM input.


Ed: in case you are wondering, your preamp's 0.1mV sensitivity from MC will be getting driven at approx. +28dB (I think) by sending 2.5mV into it. Unless it has huge headroom you can expect massive distortion from that input with that cartridge, as well as not being able to use much of the volume control's range before overloading whatever is on the receiving end of the preamp output.
 
47,000 = 47k, so yes, that cartridge is suitable for MM inputs and, as it offers 2.5mV output, it ought to be just about loud enough too (as long as you are happy to use most of the volume control). It would, however, possibly overdrive many MC inputs leading to serious distortion.

Use it with your MM input.


Ed: in case you are wondering, your preamp's 0.1mV sensitivity from MC will be getting driven at approx. +28dB (I think) by sending 2.5mV into it. Unless it has huge headroom you can expect massive distortion from that input with that cartridge, as well as not being able to use much of the volume control's range before overloading whatever is on the receiving end of the preamp output.

Thanks michael j, ive also got an audio technica at 95e which ive used on mm
but you have to have the volume up a lot as you have suggested its 3.5mv
so would 2.5mv be worse than 3.5mv for having to use to much volume.
 
Thanks michael j, ive also got an audio technica at 95e which ive used on mm
but you have to have the volume up a lot as you have suggested its 3.5mv
so would 2.5mv be worse than 3.5mv for having to use to much volume.

You will likely have to wind up the volume, but as I mentioned above, noise shouldn't be a problem as the Benz will have lower internal impedance - a very good thing and it reduces noise compared to a typical MM.

Don't worry that the volume knob is at a higher setting. If it sounds good everything is ok.
 
Thanks michael j, ive also got an audio technica at 95e which ive used on mm
but you have to have the volume up a lot as you have suggested its 3.5mv
so would 2.5mv be worse than 3.5mv for having to use to much volume.

Well yes, as you put less in you get less out. Let's do it. :)

Because we are using Volts, and dB is a measure of Power, we need to use

dB = 20 log(A/B)

i.e. 20 log(2.5 / 3.5) = -2.9 dB, about half as much output (in power terms) from the reduced input voltage. You will need to turn your volume control up by 3dB (if it is marked as such) to make it sound as loud as the AT.
 
You will likely have to wind up the volume, but as I mentioned above, noise shouldn't be a problem as the Benz will have lower internal impedance - a very good thing and it reduces noise compared to a typical MM.

Don't worry that the volume knob is at a higher setting. If it sounds good everything is ok.

The problem is when you move to another input and forget to reset the volume!

Nic P
 
The problem is when you move to another input and forget to reset the volume!

Nic P

Yes :)

Then again if there wasn't this fixation for hair-shirt amplifiers, we'd include something very useful called input trimming.
A few pre and integrated units do this but nothing like enough.
 


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