Car off road for 9 years: get it roadworthy again or scrap it?

[CHE]

Chains need to be replaced c100k on the K20 EP3s IIRC

Timing CHAINS (metal) typically are 'life of engine' and won't need to be replaced. Timing BELTS (rubber laminate) will need to be replaced before 100000k miles.

How do I know ? I used to perform structural analysis of timing belts for a major OEM supplier.

CHE

 

[hifilover1979]

K20s have a chain servicing guide; it's c100k miles IIRC

How do I know? My pals a world respected (worked for Ford M Sport & Ken Block and Honda Racing) engine & gearbox guru & has worked all over the world...

Plenty of info out there re the K20s timing chain niggles in the Type R engines...

Do we need to measure inside leg measurements now?!

 

[Coda II]

Thanks for all the input so far. Just looking at the V5 and it’s a 2002 1.4 Civic S.

Has been garaged (when not in use) all its life and yes, concrete floor.

Pendulum seems to be swinging towards just getting it taken away doesn’t it?

 

[hifilover1979]

Thanks for all the input so far. Just looking at the V5 and it’s a 2002 1.4 Civic S.

Has been garaged (when not in use) all its life and yes, concrete floor.

Pendulum seems to be swinging towards just getting it taken away doesn’t it?

Depends… do you want to keep it & run it (if it runs) or are you not missing it and you’ll be happy to see it gone, get the room back and possibly some £££ in your back pocket?

 

[Coda II]

Depends… do you want to keep it & run it (if it runs) or are you not missing it and you’ll be happy to see it gone, get the room back and possibly some £££ in your back pocket?

The last of those is what I’m edging towards, just goes against the grain to scrap something that is potentially viable. WBAC puts it at £255 but that assumes it has an MOT and isn’t a non-runner, which it doesn’t and may well be.

 

[CHE]

K20s have a chain servicing guide; it's c100k miles IIRC. Plenty of info out there re the K20s timing chain niggles in the Type R engines...

Goodness, they must have really screwed up on the system design somewhere then ! Belts I worked on were approaching that sort of mileage when I was involved almost 20 years ago (but they weren't for Honda). As I said "typically"; there is always an exception - thanks for providing an example.

CHE

PS Just read :-

'It's not a rumour, it was in the early service books as a 100k item. Honda later changed this to a 'life long item'. This is known to be false. There have been several cases of stretched chains on this forum, several cases of skipped teeth (no EML, or even symptoms for me). I can't instantly recall any exact cases of crashed valve trains but I know several people on here have had serious issues with worn timing chains. It is certainly not a life long item.'

 

[Seeker_UK]

K20s have a chain servicing guide; it's c100k miles IIRC

How do I know? My pals a world respected (worked for Ford M Sport & Ken Block and Honda Racing) engine & gearbox guru & has worked all over the world...

Plenty of info out there re the K20s timing chain niggles in the Type R engines...

First off, apologies, I misread the age of the car and assumed it was a Mk8 Civic (with an R-series engine R18), probably not.

However, if the OP's car is a Type R, with a K20 fitted, then you have a point as it has a higher upper rev limit. If, as I suspect, it's a 'cooking' Civic, then it's a different story as it has lower upper rev limit and thus not putting so much stress on the chain.

Some references:

https://kpowered.net/k-series-timing-chain-inspection-replacement/#:~:text=Do I need to replace,km (186,000 mi) mark.

https://www.k20a.org/threads/how-long-do-timing-chains-last.46115/

https://nzhondas.com/topic/75970-k20a-cam-chain-service-schedule/

Bottom line, there is no prescribed interval (300km is mentioned) but, as with all good mechanical maintenance regimes, regular inspection of the tensioner and chain (for stretch) are recommended, changing when required. The debate is more about when the chain is likely to go t*ts up.

Do we need to measure inside leg measurements now?!

Like you, I just want the OP to have the facts and avoid spending cash on unnecessary engine work if he decides to keep it.

 

[hifilover1979]

The last of those is what I’m edging towards, just goes against the grain to scrap something that is potentially viable. WBAC puts it at £255 but that assumes it has an MOT and isn’t a non-runner, which it doesn’t and may well be.

I’d speak to some local Indy garages and see if they want it. Wouldn’t piss on WBAC if they were on fire personally… But it’s a ball park figure

eBay ad, fixed price of £350 buy it now / best offer and buyer needs a trailer will work too, professional car breakers will soon have that part and make twice their offer in parts etc…

 

[hifilover1979]

Goodness, they must have really screwed up on the system design somewhere then ! Belts I worked on were approaching that sort of mileage when I was involved almost 20 years ago (but they weren't for Honda). As I said "typically"; there is always an exception - thanks for providing an example.

CHE

PS Just read :-

'It's not a rumour, it was in the early service books as a 100k item. Honda later changed this to a 'life long item'. This is known to be false. There have been several cases of stretched chains on this forum, several cases of skipped teeth (no EML, or even symptoms for me). I can't instantly recall any exact cases of crashed valve trains but I know several people on here have had serious issues with worn timing chains. It is certainly not a life long item.'

Just one of those things TBH. Bit like BMW & their bollocks ‘sealed for life’ on autoboxes and diffs. But speak to the makers of them (ZF as an example) and they’ll say service should be 60-80k etc…!

The K20 chain issues has been about a long time now; my pals got numerous chain & guides kit in all the time; he’ll do at least 4-5 a month & it’s getting that way with the manual boxes now too. Gets to a certain age/mileage and the synchros start turning to peanut butter etc!

 

[Tony Lockhart]

I’d get a base price from WBAC, just so I’d know. Then, be honest with myself about what it’d be worth if running well, MOT etc.

Then, plugs out, a teaspoon of diesel in each pot, leave overnight.
Spare battery fitted if possible.
Cloths over spark plug holes to absorb diesel, turn engine over if possible.

Take it from there. As mentioned above, with a duff donk it’s a scrapper.

 

[robs]

As above, first thing is to check that the engine's not seized. If that's OK then there's almost certainly a fair bit of work to do, though it might not be that expensive...IMHO.

- drain fuel and add new - probably wouldn't run with 9 year old petrol...
- oils and filter change (cheap and easy if you are handy and have ramps - you haven't said if you are able to DIY this?)
- new tyres (probably biggest cost! + spare..)
- free up the brakes (very possibly seized, probably discs are rusted to hell and need replacing, which means pads too. Probably not too much ££ if you can DIY). Brake fluid would need changing anyway.
- gearbox oil change
- battery
- coolant change
- wipers
- air filter(s) (could be OK)
- plugs (could be OK)
- belts/chains..

Maybe £300 for parts (excluding cambelt/chain) + another £250 for tyres...then £50 for MOT, £170 tax + insurance.

 

[Coda II]

As above, first thing is to check that the engine's not seized. If that's OK then there's almost certainly a fair bit of work to do, though it might not be that expensive...IMHO.

- drain fuel and add new - probably wouldn't run with 9 year old petrol...
- oils and filter change (cheap and easy if you are handy and have ramps - you haven't said if you are able to DIY this?)
- new tyres (probably biggest cost! + spare..)
- free up the brakes (very possibly seized, probably discs are rusted to hell and need replacing, which means pads too. Probably not too much ££ if you can DIY). Brake fluid would need changing anyway.
- gearbox oil change
- battery
- coolant change
- wipers
- air filter(s) (could be OK)
- plugs (could be OK)
- belts/chains..

Maybe £300 for parts (excluding cambelt/chain) + another £250 for tyres...then £50 for MOT, £170 tax + insurance.

Would definitely be a garage job not diy, so it would be a tidy sum even if the engine is good from the off.
Sounds like first port of call would be an independent to see if they want it to fix and resell, otherwise the breakers beckon.

 

[robs]

If it's in good condition, low mileage and no rust, then seems a shame to scrap it - might be a good project for a trainee/apprentice mechanic to take on and make a few ££, so if you are OK to accept 'scrap'/WBAC value for it, maybe a local Gumtree/Facebook ad would be the way to go? Make it clear it needs to be trailered away..

 

[linnfomaniac83]

Plugs out, turn engine over manually. Turns over fine, it should be fine (fresh oil and filter needed and new plugs); but turn over with the fuel pump fuse out too, to build up oil pressure before you properly turn the engine over

You'll need to drain the fuel tank and add fresh fuel too

Doesn't turn over, scrap it...

Belts will NEED changing though so bear that in mind...!

This… it should turn over fine, but if the timing belt gives, it’s bad news.

 

[forester]

If you're not fixing it then advertise in the classic car papers, that way it will go to a good home instead of being scrapped. It's definitely fixable but you need a good reason to spend the time on it and possibly some cash too. Tyres aren't considered safe after 10 years.

 

[wow&flutter]

As mentioned above you may get away with a basic fluid change and a brake service and get through an mot. Not looked but I suspect in this climate even a basic model Civic could command a healthy price used with an mot.

Depending on the model though multiple items may well add up if you have to consider a cam belt, maybe some callipers and pads, battery, exhaust (or part of) let alone standard service items.

I think my decision would very much depend on which model we’re talking about. This applies especially to the engine involved as any of the performance engines like the B16, B18 or even the later K series are in demand for Minis etc. There are lots of bits in those models that you could recoup some cash.

Ultimately, you need to do the usual checks and base your decision on what you actually find.

 

[Mullardman]

I have a 2004 well maintained Civic Type S. 2.0 L It has a timing chain. I was told in no uncertain terms by a main dealer that the aux drive belt just will not break. Also,..even if it does it is a 'stop before overheat' fault.

I see no reason whatever why an engine which has been unused should be seriously seized.. If in doubt,turn it over a few times mechanically and then try starting. (Ignition OFF, Neutral, turn using a socket on the crankshaft pulley. If it works..let it warm up a bit, drop the oil and then change it..and the filter. Change brake fluid, though even that I wouldn't panic about. Tyres will need changing. If, as reported, it has been garaged..then it should not need new discs/pads etc..unless they were already knackered.

Bring it back to life gently and carefully..check all systems are working and then get it MOT'd and do with it as you wish.

Admittedly my 2.0 is rather more sought after than the 1.4.. but you may well find Honda enthusiasts queuing up to buy it as a a 'Project'.

Oh!!, Incidentally my Civic has a 'book' value well below £1k, but maybe you tell me what I could buy for £1k that is a 2.0 litre 5 door hatch with 160 bhp and stunning reliability?

 

[AnilS]

To add my sad experience.

My Saab 9000 (many years ago) was laid up for 3 years.

Hadn't moved or been started so I was advised by a friend, many of the suggestions above.

Plugs out and a drop of diesel overnight.
Didn't drain the fuel but the car's battery was flat and recoverable so bought a new one.
Brakes were seized so I pumped up the tyres (they were already 5 years old when laid up) to 50% more than recommended pressures.
Jacked up the car (check your jacking points for rust first) and did a series of "drops" on each corner. Amazing, it unseized the calipers. Handbrake was never on so ok.

This engine had a timing chain.

Turned over the next day and it was fine.

Put spark plugs in and gingerly warmed up. All seemed fine.

Took it out for a modest 20 mile run. No issues and no motorway.

Following day, on the motorway after a decent warm up, got to 70mph and after 5 mins, the timing chain let go.

Investigation found there was catastrophic failure of the chain and/or tensioner (chicken and egg). Prior to the car being laid up, it had fresh oil. Prior to turning over, the oil level was perfect, but wondered later if any gulleys were blocked.

Wrote the car off.

So please, check the belts if you can. Not sure if you can crank the engine over by hand?

 

[stevec67]

I'd say it would be worth it if you intend to use the car. If not, you won't get your money back. As you say you don't have a use for it, I'd sell it spares or repairs as it sits and get rid.