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Can we hear anything, allowed to hear anything, or are you deaf/stupid?

Personally I really think you have to match speakers to the room. I have Harbeth SHL5 Plus Anniversary. They are a lovely speaker but I should have chosen a smaller one for my 11ft 6 x 15 ft 6 room. New build house as well so plasterboard clad walls. Neighbours are getting the bass, so is it move house, change set up ??? I have them on the market at the moment just over 1 yr old with HiFiracks stands £5650 worth new . I have them on here at £4k a good saving for someone. I think maybe M30.2 would have suited better. Next time I will dem in my home.
 
Omni speakers are odd things IMHO. They can sound very impressive and enjoyable, even quite “real”, but I don’t think I’d ever want to record or mix a track on a pair. By saying that you get used to the kit you have so would likely adapt given enough time. All I’ll say is speakers like Larson, Shahinians, MBLs etc bare absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to any sound I’ve ever heard in a studio. That’s not to say they are wrong/bad/invalid or anything, just that they are doing a very different thing. I’d rather like to hear that sort of speaker in a TV sound perspective, I bet they’d work rather well.

Agreed. My (moderately extensive) experience is that they provide a rather effective substitute for the effect a concert hall gives.
So if you listen to music that is normally perfomed in a concert hall they are excellent.

Sadly they fall well short in terms of coherence and timing when replaying music recorded in a studio.
 
Perhaps I am not explaining myself clearly enough!

My aim in choosing a pair of speakers is not necessarily to hear what the mixing engineer hears, or even to replicate the exact sound from the concert hall. My room isn’t big enough! My aim is to get the sensation of having the musicians in front of me as a convincing illusion without the distraction of thinking the sound is coming from a pair of loudspeakers. Think Proust and his Madeleine cake; something that triggers a memory and brings it into the present as opposed to being the memory. As a visiting friend, scientist and regular concert goer said when I had both Dutch & Dutch and MBLs in the room was that the sound from the D&D were very impressive but that the MBLs sounded musical, as in it was like listening to the real thing.

Get that sensation of having music being played in front of you and any arguments of how it measures, or whether it is high fidelity, become an irrelevance. A lot depends on genre; when I listen to rock, pop and some jazz, what I am describing is less important for me and I would possibly go for the more technically impressive D&D. Unfortunately they didn’t convince with the genre I listen to the most, and MBL and Quads, both with sub are good enough (actually far more than good enough) for my occasional listens to King Crimson, Cream or LED Zeppelin.

I really wanted the D&D to work for me as they are much easier to accommodate in the room, not having to be located six feet from the wall behind. I can fully understand that the sound they give could well be more convincing for some people than dipoles or omnis. Our perception of sound is individual to each of us which is why we choose different ways of achieving sound reproduction in our home. In essence it is subjective.

All my comments are IME and IMHO. It is not a statement of fact that will apply to everyone else and so Possibly irrelevant to some contributors here!

For reference in reaching my “current” conclusion I have owned B&W, PMC, LS50, Meridian, BKS, Monitor Audio, ”conventional” style speakers and Quad 57s, 63s and 2812, Apogee hybrid, Martin Logan Aerius, Ascent and Electromotion ESL, MBL126. In the past year I have had Dutch and Dutch in the house and lengthy auditions of Kii and B&O 50. The most technically impressive from an objective point of view were probably the D&D. The ones that sounded most like having music played in front of me were the MBLs. The Quad 2812s came the closest to having the virtues of D&D and MBL in that they reproduce the detail present in the recording whilst still not sounding so much like a speaker but like hearing music. Ideally, I could do with a wider room and probably a pair of MBL 101e. The first isn’t going to happen because I like where I live and those 101s are hideously expensive. Mind you, if I hadn’t spent so much discovering what works for me I would have enough cash to buy a pair!
Well, since you are referencing Proust, you have very specific requirements for your system that are not well described by standard measurements.

I understand your goal and have also spent some portion of my audiophile career trying to reach something similar, though I described it differently at the time.

As my sources and musical genres increased, that goal made less and less sense, as there was no musical event, much less memory, either on the record or associated with the record.
 
Big speakers with a narrow dispersion pattern.

Wish I had the space - if you do they will remove a lot of the room but still allow the "in the room" feeling that electronic correction IME does not.
 
Perhaps I am not explaining myself clearly enough!

My aim in choosing a pair of speakers is not necessarily to hear what the mixing engineer hears, or even to replicate the exact sound from the concert hall. My room isn’t big enough! My aim is to get the sensation of having the musicians in front of me as a convincing illusion without the distraction of thinking the sound is coming from a pair of loudspeakers. Think Proust and his Madeleine cake; something that triggers a memory and brings it into the present as opposed to being the memory. As a visiting friend, scientist and regular concert goer said when I had both Dutch & Dutch and MBLs in the room was that the sound from the D&D were very impressive but that the MBLs sounded musical, as in it was like listening to the real thing.

Get that sensation of having music being played in front of you and any arguments of how it measures, or whether it is high fidelity, become an irrelevance. A lot depends on genre; when I listen to rock, pop and some jazz, what I am describing is less important for me and I would possibly go for the more technically impressive D&D. Unfortunately they didn’t convince with the genre I listen to the most, and MBL and Quads, both with sub are good enough (actually far more than good enough) for my occasional listens to King Crimson, Cream or LED Zeppelin.

I really wanted the D&D to work for me as they are much easier to accommodate in the room, not having to be located six feet from the wall behind. I can fully understand that the sound they give could well be more convincing for some people than dipoles or omnis. Our perception of sound is individual to each of us which is why we choose different ways of achieving sound reproduction in our home. In essence it is subjective.

All my comments are IME and IMHO. It is not a statement of fact that will apply to everyone else and so Possibly irrelevant to some contributors here!

For reference in reaching my “current” conclusion I have owned B&W, PMC, LS50, Meridian, BKS, Monitor Audio, ”conventional” style speakers and Quad 57s, 63s and 2812, Apogee hybrid, Martin Logan Aerius, Ascent and Electromotion ESL, MBL126. In the past year I have had Dutch and Dutch in the house and lengthy auditions of Kii and B&O 50. The most technically impressive from an objective point of view were probably the D&D. The ones that sounded most like having music played in front of me were the MBLs. The Quad 2812s came the closest to having the virtues of D&D and MBL in that they reproduce the detail present in the recording whilst still not sounding so much like a speaker but like hearing music. Ideally, I could do with a wider room and probably a pair of MBL 101e. The first isn’t going to happen because I like where I live and those 101s are hideously expensive. Mind you, if I hadn’t spent so much discovering what works for me I would have enough cash to buy a pair!
I'm very much with you on your quest to achieve a convincing musical and an apparently physical illusion.

I think where the technical people come from is that all you can do is try to get as close to the recording/mix as possible. Whether this translates into the illusion we want is then down the mix achieved in the studio. This is a bit of lost cause then as we are fully at the mercy of the recording.

It certainly is possible to achieve our goal for certain instruments or genres. Do doubt this involves some distortion. The difficultly occurs when the sax or oboe etc which is so stunning is replaced with our next album which features an electric guitar. The system likely won't sound as wonderful.

Do we then aim at neutrality where everything sounds good if a little clinical or genre specific setups where certain music can be spectacular. This is why I have two systems in separate rooms and even then swap power amps around to suit the music I'm playing. I don't swap on a daily basis, I run a set up for a few weeks at a time.
 
I'm very much with you on your quest to achieve a convincing musical and an apparently physical illusion.

I think where the technical people come from is that all you can do is try to get as close to the recording/mix as possible. Whether this translates into the illusion we want is then down the mix achieved in the studio. This is a bit of lost cause then as we are fully at the mercy of the recording.

It certainly is possible to achieve our goal for certain instruments or genres. Do doubt this involves some distortion. The difficultly occurs when the sax or oboe etc which is so stunning is replaced with our next album which features an electric guitar. The system likely won't sound as wonderful.

Do we then aim at neutrality where everything sounds good if a little clinical or genre specific setups where certain music can be spectacular. This is why I have two systems in separate rooms and even then swap power amps around to suit the music I'm playing. I don't swap on a daily basis, I run a set up for a few weeks at a time.
Very good points you make, thanks. I’m not so sure about distortion though, I have always liked Quad electrostatics precisely for their neutrality when reproducing acoustic instruments. The room, of course, has a much greater influence than with cardioid speakers and this can be either to the detriment or advantage of the sound quality. With rock produced in a studio ‘realism’ goes out of the window so I am not really worried about whether the sound in my room is the same as the recording engineer, as long as I enjoy it - and on occasion I do.

In many ways I take the recording as is, nothing much I can do about it and no point to my way of thinking of getting hung up and pedantic on whether I am hearing what the engineer heard. Apart from anything else I don’t have his hearing! The reproduction equipment and my room I do have some control over and here my aim is to tickle my memory of live recitals or concerts to the extent that I am fooled into thinking I am hearing the original music making, in my home, unsullied by a hi-fi system. Perhaps I am easily fooled but sometimes the aural image I have in front of me is unnervingly convincing.

I absolutely get that different people want different things from their setups, and I mention my aims and how I achieved them for anyone’s interest who is not too hung up on a particular approach being right, and most certainly not as a stricture that’s everyone else must follow. In our own ways we all are right. Ironically I use measurements quite a bit in furthering my aim, but as a tool not an objective.

Music starts as a creative and subjective act and ends with a subjective response in our minds. I am looking to make the middle stages, recording and equipment, be transparent so that the initial stage connects best with the last stage and to my way of experiencing music some speakers work better than others, for me!
 
I'm very much with you on your quest to achieve a convincing musical and an apparently physical illusion.

I think where the technical people come from is that all you can do is try to get as close to the recording/mix as possible. Whether this translates into the illusion we want is then down the mix achieved in the studio. This is a bit of lost cause then as we are fully at the mercy of the recording.

It certainly is possible to achieve our goal for certain instruments or genres. Do doubt this involves some distortion. The difficultly occurs when the sax or oboe etc which is so stunning is replaced with our next album which features an electric guitar. The system likely won't sound as wonderful.

Do we then aim at neutrality where everything sounds good if a little clinical or genre specific setups where certain music can be spectacular. This is why I have two systems in separate rooms and even then swap power amps around to suit the music I'm playing. I don't swap on a daily basis, I run a set up for a few weeks at a time.

Ideally the speakers should transduce the signal as accurately as possible and from then onwards it's up to the listener to decide if he prefers to include more or less of the room sound (reflections).

Stereo is not perfect and it makes all the sense that people like @camverton might opt for a more immersive presentation. Omnis are one option, multichannel stereo is another option.

I had a pair of semi-omnis (roughly identical to the Shahinian Compass but with a wide-band driver) for a while but they were rubbish. I've never listened to MBLs. I can't really say whether or not such a topology would work for me. I do like horns, which are extremely directional, so I may not like omnis like the MBLs.
 
Cam,

I personally haven’t found any yet, any suggestions for me to try?

A guy in a record store once told me that all musical journeys lead to funk. It doesn't matter where you started, if you're serious about music eventually you will discover funk.

I'm tempted to say the same thing about ginormous Tannoys for those on an audio journey, but that's rather self-serving. Given that you like your MBLs it would seem that bigger MBLs are where you should end up. Or ginormous Tannoys. :)

Joe
 
I wouldn’t describe MBLs as an immersive presentation in the sense that multichannel is. Holographic might be a better description but it is difficult to describe and needs to heard well set up in a suitable environment, which probably excludes most hifi shows! I suspect relatively few people have experienced them although I know of two other owners here of various models in the range. Lee of Strictly Stereo had a brief listen to mine although at that stage I didn’t have them set up very well and I think my uncarpeted room at the moment is not ideal. I’m happy to invite genuinely interested regulars here for a listen in the wilds of Herefordshire.
 
My musical journey has led me in all sorts of directions, but I’m not clear in which of his periods Beethoven composed ‘funk’.
 
Cam,



A guy in a record store once told me that all musical journeys lead to funk. It doesn't matter where you started, if you're serious about music eventually you will discover funk.

I'm tempted to say the same thing about ginormous Tannoys for those on an audio journey, but that's rather self-serving. Given that you like your MBLs it would seem that bigger MBLs are where you should end up. Or ginormous Tannoys. :)

Joe
 
A guy in a record store once told me that all musical journeys lead to funk. It doesn't matter where you started, if you're serious about music eventually you will discover funk.

That’s probably about right e.g. Miles Davis On The Corner & Get Up With It, early electric period Herbie Hancock, MPS-era George Duke etc. I approve.
 
P.P.S. And my all-time favourite The Onion article.

https://politics.theonion.com/clinton-threatens-to-drop-da-bomb-on-iraq-1819564617

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Joe
 
I have no doubt you are right and have been searching for just that. I personally haven’t found any yet, any suggestions for me to try?
I'm going to row back a bit, based on reading your comments more. Box speakers will tend to "take you there" rather than "bring it here". If you like the latter then dipoles are a good choice. I like the former.

When I heard MBLs at a show they were played, way, way too loud and with a class D amp. No. Point being most things sound (sometimes much) worse at shows than at home, this isn't particular to any type of speaker. Given listening positions are so crucial in almost all rooms (outside treated studios) it's not surprising. I can also criticise the sound of my favourites at shows!
 


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