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building tannoys...beginners help please

Rockmeister

pfm Member
I'm OK at woodwork, but in any case have all the skills I need for my sense of aesthetics:)
I have a Tannoy itch to scratch but think I may well be able to make a large saving over legacy Cheviots (new) for example by building something of my own. And I have a garage empty and needing some winter use.
Thats all I know!
Room is 16 x 14' and I don't want them too huge...maybe 100-150 litre cabinets or so (corrected after To To's post below).
Hundreds of questions, like which drivers? From where? how to ascertain condition? Cabinet designs? Web site help, electronic advice (I have zero electronic skills beyond a reasonable ability with a soldering iron) and etc.
Any basic guidelines to get me thinking will be very welcome.
 
20-30 litre cabinets are far too small IMO if you're trying to replicate the performance of the Cheviot using a 12" driver, unless of course you want to run subwoofers with them?! The original Cheviot driver, the HPD 315, is reportedly optimised for a ported enclosure of between 100-150 litres. I don't know exactly what the internal volume of the Cheviot enclosure is, but based its dimensions I'd expect it to be about 70 litres.
 
Unless you're very knowledgeable and have the necessary equipment to test and measure everything properly I'd be inclined to stick to an original Tannoy cabinet and crossover design.
 
yes apologise...my calculator muck up. About 3' x 1.5 x 1' very ish...5 cubic feet is about 125 litres approx, so anything from 100-200litres would be fine size wise I'd guess.
 
Unless you're very knowledgeable and have the necessary equipment to test and measure everything properly I'd be inclined to stick to an original Tannoy cabinet and crossover design.
I'm not and I don't Mike so yes, first point made. Sounds fine.
 
many thanks both. My last kit was 70's so there's a kind of familiarity to some of those badly drawn plans :)
Guy R Fountain memory model...I never knew that. I'd love one but a tatty one would not be a good idea. However my original idea has already grown in size. How hard are 15" drivers to find and which one should i be searching out?
 
Whatever driver you choose, make sure the crossover, box size and port will work with it. All four things work together as one, change one of these and there's a good chance it won't work very well. I don't like giving away my hard-earned knowledge (you never know who's reading) but on the other hand, I hate to think of someone going to all the trouble of building a pair of boxes only to be disappointed, or not realising the drivers full potential.

What you shouldn't do it find a driver and build a recommended box, and then use a crossover that was designed for a different enclosure volume. You may get the correct integration between woofer and tweeter but the baffle step correction will probably be wrong.

The correct way to design a speaker is to measure the thiele small parameters, model an enclosure and port (assuming ported), and then design a crossover to suite. If I put my current diy speakers and crossovers in any box that is different to the one they are in now, the bass will not be linear. Only the enclosure volume they are in now will give a flat response, and that will be the same of any speaker, Tannoy included. If I put my speakers in a different sized enclosure I would have to completely redesign the crossover.
 
However my original idea has already grown in size. How hard are 15" drivers to find and which one should i be searching out?
I would have a word with Uncle Frank (cooky1257). When I visited him ostensibly to buy his Amesburys he presented me with an alternative of some 15” tulip waveguide drivers and cabinets built to order by someone he knew. You might find he has something interesting - but if not he will have ideas and is generous with his time and knowledge. (I bought the Amesburys because a pair of beautiful speakers that left the factory the same week I left school was irresistible, BTW.)
 
What you shouldn't do it find a driver and build a recommended box, and then use a crossover that was designed for a different enclosure volume. You may get the correct integration between woofer and tweeter but the baffle step correction will probably be wrong.

Likely true but that's what most folk do (including myself) and seem to get away with it. There is after all only one stock crossover design for the MG12/MG15 and another for the HPD315/HPD385.
 
many thanks both. My last kit was 70's so there's a kind of familiarity to some of those badly drawn plans :)
Guy R Fountain memory model...I never knew that. I'd love one but a tatty one would not be a good idea. However my original idea has already grown in size. How hard are 15" drivers to find and which one should i be searching out?
If you're going to use a transistor amp, and you want reasonably deep bass, the HPD series are a bargain compares to golds, reds and silvers. The surrounds dont last for ever (15- 20 years?) but can be carefully DIY re-done without a recone. They're about half/two thirds the price of golds, have the same treble driver, basket, spider and very nearly the same crossover - and a stiffer cone that handles a little more power. And go lower.
 
Likely true but that's what most folk do (including myself) and seem to get away with it. There is after all only one stock crossover design for the MG12/MG15 and another for the HPD315/HPD385.

You wouldn't get away with it with my speakers or Tannoys if they were tuned the same as mine. If you look at Stereophile measurements, you will see that a lot of small speakers are tuned high and have a big midbass peak but very little extension. Speakers that are tuned like that may work OK in a bigger box, tuned lower. This could be how Tannoy tunes its smaller speakers, and the reason why they work OK in larger boxes, but I wouldn't personally want to go to all the trouble of building a pair of boxes without knowing for sure. Ported speakers have very little tolerance when it comes to enclosure size and tuning (unlike sealed speakers). I've recently been modelling my next design and the ideal enclosure volume is 45ltr. Anywhere between 44ltr and 46ltr is OK, any bigger and I get a bass peak at the tuning frequency (the larger the volume, the larger the peak), It will still sound fine in a bigger enclosure, but with the odd track bass will sound OTT, and anyone who doesn't know any better will say it's a bad recording, room problem or just port noise etc.

I read a thread on here a while back where someone said the lower midrange was weak. They had built a large enclosure for their Tannoys and it was obvious the box was too big for the driver/crossover. Someone may be happy with what they have created but that doesn't mean they have a linear frequency response or that they have got the best out of their drivers.
 
You wouldn't get away with it with my speakers or Tannoys if they were tuned the same as mine. If you look at Stereophile measurements, you will see that a lot of small speakers are tuned high and have a big midbass peak but very little extension. Speakers that are tuned like that may work OK in a bigger box, tuned lower. This could be how Tannoy tunes its smaller speakers, and the reason why they work OK in larger boxes, but I wouldn't personally want to go to all the trouble of building a pair of boxes without knowing for sure. Ported speakers have very little tolerance when it comes to enclosure size and tuning (unlike sealed speakers). I've recently been modelling my next design and the ideal enclosure volume is 45ltr. Anywhere between 44ltr and 46ltr is OK, any bigger and I get a bass peak at the tuning frequency (the larger the volume, the larger the peak), It will still sound fine in a bigger enclosure, but with the odd track bass will sound OTT, and anyone who doesn't know any better will say it's a bad recording, room problem or just port noise etc.

I read a thread on here a while back where someone said the lower midrange was weak. They had built a large enclosure for their Tannoys and it was obvious the box was too big for the driver/crossover. Someone may be happy with what they have created but that doesn't mean they have a linear frequency response or that they have got the best out of their drivers.
With the greatest respect from one speaker DIYer to another...Tannoys have, with their stock crossover, been used in a wide variety of cabinet types - folded horn, ported, IB, Lockwoods semi thing - and volumes - Lancaster to Autograph. Some - many, of the classic albums of the last half century plus were mixed on them. They are way more tolerant of cabinet size and design than most drivers.
I think as long as you get your port calculations right, cabinet volume is a simple as within reason, bigger is better. They seem more room tolerant than you have any right to expect, too. Work well in smaller rooms, don't tend to boom at LF.
 
If you're going to use a transistor amp, and you want reasonably deep bass, the HPD series are a bargain compares to golds, reds and silvers.
Or even valves, IME! (Apologies for the masking tape, I’m decorating and wanted to mark the correct positions.)

49400848261_f5fb14fb35_c.jpg
 
With the greatest respect from one speaker DIYer to another...Tannoys have, with their stock crossover, been used in a wide variety of cabinet types - folded horn, ported, IB, Lockwoods semi thing - and volumes - Lancaster to Autograph. Some - many, of the classic albums of the last half century plus were mixed on them. They are way more tolerant of cabinet size and design than most drivers.
I think as long as you get your port calculations right, cabinet volume is a simple as within reason, bigger is better. They seem more room tolerant than you have any right to expect, too. Work well in smaller rooms, don't tend to boom at LF.

You're one of the good guys and I hate doing this but I also hate misinformation online (I think we both know how much trouble it can cause).

I tried to make some graphs in MS paint to show what I mean but failed and I can't overlay graphs in the software I use :( . I wanted to show that the midrange always stays at the same level when the crossover stays the same - but the bass can only be linear with one enclosure size and tuning frequency (with that particular crossover). That is a fact, not an opinion. If you go for an extended bass shelf (bigger box) without adjustments to the crossover, the bass, midbass and possible lower midrange will be lacking. If you raise the tuning frequency to try to compensate, you will have a peak at the tuning frequency (wonky low frequency response), so it kind of compensates but you still have a midbass and lower mid that's lacking. (This is all assuming you have a speaker with a perfectly flat frequency response to start with)

This isn't an opinion, this is a fact, that can be backed up with data (if I could work out how to do it).
 
You're one of the good guys and I hate doing this but I also hate misinformation online (I think we both know how much trouble it can cause).

I tried to make some graphs in MS paint to show what I mean but failed and I can't overlay graphs in the software I use :( . I wanted to show that the midrange always stays at the same level when the crossover stays the same - but the bass can only be linear with one enclosure size and tuning frequency (with that particular crossover). That is a fact, not an opinion. If you go for an extended bass shelf (bigger box) without adjustments to the crossover, the bass, midbass and possible lower midrange will be lacking. If you raise the tuning frequency to try to compensate, you will have a peak at the tuning frequency (wonky low frequency response), so it kind of compensates but you still have a midbass and lower mid that's lacking. (This is all assuming you have a speaker with a perfectly flat frequency response to start with)

This isn't an opinion, this is a fact, that can be backed up with data (if I could work out how to do it).
I don't dispute this, but respectfully point out that some of the most desirable vintage speakers of all time, and the monitors which some of the most respected ears in the business chose to use, used these drivers and the same crossover in a variety of cabinets, volumes and port tunings.
So, the effect of cabinet size must be amenable to workarounds, and the driver/crossover not particularly susceptible to having its plusses buggered up.
There are level controls on the crossovers from golds onward, BTW, Treble and Energy IIRC.

Tannoy wisdom is that they work better in some cabinets than others...there is a hierarchy, with rectangular Lancasters supposedly not getting anything near the best out of the drivers, and the sweet spot being Yorks, particularly corner Yorks. Look at what fetches the money on ebay.
I've owned a few different Tannoys over the years, including Autos, and the ones I prefer, which I still have, are 12"MG in 200l cabs with silver crossovers.

I think those fairly high efficiency drivers with large cones, because a large area of their wavefront is directly driven, with smaller cone movement, rather than propagated from a fairly small source, are doing something a bit different, and are more subjectively more immune to cabinet and port effects than speakers with smaller drivers with big excursions.Big Altecs are the same - way less fussy about cabinets than you may think. For years Tannoy used to sell Lancasters with the wrong size port, or the port blocked off...still sounded pretty good. They could do that because the driver and crossover is outstanding, one of the best transducers made to date.

I know you have the maths to back it up, but I've heard a lot of Tannoy drivers in a wide variety of cabs, and I'd say they all sound good - some special - but the bigger the cab the free-er and more effortless they sound, though the Autos could boom unless they were loaded with Reds. Though that kind of follows, as they were designed for silvers, which are more or less reds. I will say though that I regard the Tannoy horn designs as being less successful than the ported ones. Perhaps the mid-shy Tannoy you referenced upthread was a horn design?

I'll just finish up with an anecdote....I had a pair of HPD 385s lying around, and I was at the car boot and there were an empty pair of Maplin AC PA carpet covered cabs (for 1 x 15 and a piezo horn) on a stall for a fiver...bought them, took them home, converted the horn cut out to a guestimate port, screwed the crossovers in internally, drivers a direct fit...all done by mid afternoon the same day. Sound bloody excellent. No boom and subjectively flat. Come and hear em if you like!

Then there's the Lockwood design...

Anyway, I'll stop now. I'm happy to continue the conversation if you listen to some Tannoys - and Altecs - and familiarise yourself with the sound, and what they do. At the moment I'm reminded of the scientist who say a bee can't fly...
 
It would not supprise me that the original tannoy Crossovers did not incorporate a BSC circuit, hence why the corner or big ported cabs sound the best, especially with rear wall of corner reinforcement. Just a thought.

I was under the impression that BSC is much less of an issue in real world rooms when you have baffle widths of 400-500mm+ anyway.
 


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