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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XV

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tonerei said:
Disagree with that. UK as you agree have taken the worst option.
On the monetary union it has been flawed and fraught with problems but most of those problems were created by the foolishness of the so called Pigs....
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Stop right there.

Utter cobblers.
 
eternumviti said:
A simple question was set before us. We don't then answer that question without thoroughly interrogating our reasoning. Do do this effectively, you divide the question into its vital components, debate them with your own conscience, and with other people. From this process you reach a decision.
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Indeed. But to assume that others haven't in the same way is wide of the mark. My issue is your attempted equivalence that support for the UK remaining is total endorsement of all aspects of the EU, it's not. No more than your vote to Leave was a total endorsement of all aspects of the UK.
 
TheDecameron said:
President Putin is now a friend, he pluckily stands up to aggressive EU expansionist/ hegemonistic mercantilism©. We join him in calling out these global elites.

© copyright Eternumviti, 2021
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Among the Brexiteers I know, admittedly a small sample, Putin is quietly admired. In summary: strong man, takes no nonsense, glorious Russian history, and stands up to the elites. I suppose it also has something to do with 'standing alone' (as Britain did in WW2). Farage, of course, openly admires Putin. Maybe EV will comment.
 
Before anyone took them seriously, some Brexiteers would refer to the 'EUSSR', as if there was any comparison between a dictatorial superstate that imprisoned millions and violently crushed any opposition, and a trading bloc composed of sovereign states with complete control over most of their policies.
 
If being 75% in favour of the EU is unacceptable and a clear sign of Euroscepticism and fence sitting, how much more in favour of the EU does one have to be to be a true Remainer?
 
eternumviti said:
You seem to be getting a bit desperate, Kirk. There comes a time when you really need to zip it, but no, on you thrash.

On your first non-point, I feel almost supranaturally calm today, and there is nothing in my post to indicate otherwise. Grow up.

On your second non-point, you've evidently both failed to read what I wrote, or looked past the end of your own nose at the EU's behaviour.

You seem content with that corrupt, shit-stirring little shit Verhofstadt. Fine by me, he's out of my loop now. We've got lots of work to do right here dealing with our own corrupt shits, elected and otherwise.

Why not just try to be a bit more civil?/QUOTE]


Do we need to interpret your effervescent posts as simple projection then?

Your reference to GV suggests, once again, a certain displeasure with the political classes/elites. I think you voted for Boris, so taking on-board your "analysis" above, you must also be displeased with him, no? And as for Crimea - you are anti-annexation as is the EU. It is out of these small specks of common ground that wounds can start to heal and enemies can begin to converse.

PS There are one or two other members who default to the 'shut up' strategy. It's very low rent and a touch authoritarian. I'm sure you would agree.
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Kirk said:
Among the Brexiteers I know, admittedly a small sample, Putin is quietly admired. In summary: strong man, takes no nonsense, glorious Russian history, and stands up to the elites. I suppose it also has something to do with 'standing alone' (as Britain did in WW2). Farage, of course, openly admires Putin. Maybe EV will comment.
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You know people who admire Putin?

I can't say I do.
 
Joe Hutch said:
Before anyone took them seriously, some Brexiteers would refer to the 'EUSSR', as if there was any comparison between a dictatorial superstate that imprisoned millions and violently crushed any opposition, and a trading bloc composed of sovereign states with complete control over most of their policies.
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I didn't notice you comment when a photo was posted here the other day in which the faces of members of the cabinet had been superimposed onto a photo of a Nazi party rally in the 1930s.
 
Joe Hutch said:
Before anyone took them seriously, some Brexiteers would refer to the 'EUSSR', as if there was any comparison between a dictatorial superstate that imprisoned millions and violently crushed any opposition, and a trading bloc composed of sovereign states with complete control over most of their policies.
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"EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions. This is what all EU member states have signed up to as members of the European Union.”

“We will use all the powers that we have under the treaties to ensure this. We will uphold the founding principles of our Union’s legal order. Our 450 million Europeans rely on this.”

Ursula von der Leyen, yesterday.
 
Kirk said:
Among the Brexiteers I know, admittedly a small sample, Putin is quietly admired. In summary: strong man, takes no nonsense, glorious Russian history, and stands up to the elites. I suppose it also has something to do with 'standing alone' (as Britain did in WW2). Farage, of course, openly admires Putin. Maybe EV will comment.
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Stands up to the elites ?? Putin is probably the richest man in the world.
 
Kirk said:
Among the Brexiteers I know, admittedly a small sample, Putin is quietly admired...
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So was Stalin, by quite large numbers at the time.
He brought Russia into the industrial age. Shame about all the collateral damage, starving peasants and such.
 
Minio said:
So was Stalin, by quite large numbers at the time.
He brought Russia into the industrial age. Shame about all the collateral damage, starving peasants and such.
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In fairness to Brexiters, Stalin was off the stage long before there were any of them about.

There were if course good numbers amongst the aristocracy and the landed classes who thought Adolf was a good egg, largely because they saw him as the antidote to Stalin, and communism generally.
 
tonerei said:
On the monetary union it has been flawed and fraught with problems but most of those problems were created by the foolishness of the so called Pigs. Of course the Germans play a huge part for the lack of oversight by their institutions during that period. For sure the policy needs to be more diversified and what has been acknowledged here by many on the remain side is the slowness of the EU to act. That has always been a problem.
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Do you mean PIIGS? (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain). Those countries are not causes, they are more like victims. The so-called "high debt" they have is manufactured debt due to the manner in which all EMU users are forced to operate in blanket fashion with no regard for local circumstances. Those countries actually ran austerity spending right up to the 2008 crash, whereas e.g. France was running huge deficits, yet the PIIGS countries were branded 'profligate'! The so-called "excessive" wage increases and spending is what allowed those countries to enrich mercantilist nations like Germany/Netherlands/France. Whatever any personalities may do or not do the Euro system has failure built into it. It has a central bank with no allied fiscal arm; in fact the entire conception is built around permanent separation of monetary and fiscal policy. A relic of the late 70s/early 80s. And it has barely altered in tone, though they've been forced to break their rules or crash the Euro.

It isn't diversification, but wholesale structural change required. Ideally it would be reinstatement of national currencies, free-floating. Since that's a long-term thing, it needs complete overhaul so they don't face a treasury-less central bank charged only with blunt monetary policy. The main problem is that each country is at the mercy of the ECB for clearing purposes (lending issued reserves as a central bank normally does for clearing purposes). This forces countries to actually borrow at 'market interest rates' to "temper" their spending.
The EU insisting its members move to the Euro has created a hellhole. As members try to meet the Maastricht criteria they are forced to act in ways antithetical to their economic well-being (such as e.g. Hungary). This encourages the 'creative accounting' concealing unavoidable forced debt, rather than just normal procedures for management.

Knowing that, why would the UK want to be embroiled in that system? To be sure the UK as a sovereign currency issuer can step back (as it did in the GFC) and just control the monetary/fiscal system in a direct way. Though what it did, as an EU member, was operate within similar lines: stabilising the mess and then imposing the same draconian austerity on its population as that done by the ECB. And it was entirely unnecessary, yet the UK as a member HAD to abide by dozens of agreed policies with regard to fiscal outlay. Thus it is correct to say EU membership permanently impedes a member country's ability to service its economy without destroying other members' parasitically. This is not the definition of cooperative growth or well-being.

What did the UK lose? Easy terms of trade and a right to cooperation (plus easy movement of people/capital which is another matter). That's pretty much it. Unless people think the ability to rise and profit at the expense of forcing PIIGS nations into austerity and misery is an EU benefit.
 
Just for clarity, anyone who thought they were poking the EU in the eye by voting for the Tories to effect Brexit, are also grade-A idiots who don't understand what the UK needed to do. This is why I can be neither an EU cheerleader (positioned as: better that than free-fall) nor a Brexit blusterer, because both are positions of calamitous ignorance where it matters.
The bulk of talk about 'EU laws' in terms of fishing, travel etc is high order drivel put out for media consumption and geared towards sowing discontent.
 
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