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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XV

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Minio, Oct 9, 2021.

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  1. Rob998

    Rob998 Scimmia Nordoccidentale

    The case of Vino Collapso he’s had to drink to keep believing.
     
    tonerei likes this.
  2. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Pending

    In the interests of balance, it is often remarked that for every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, obvious, and wrong.

    Thing is, if that applies to the decision making process of most Brexitiers, it could also apply to many people for whom Remain was a no-brainer.

    It’s a complex, nuanced question, for which we were only offered simple, blunt options. Remain might be ‘better’ but that doesn’t mean it’s definitely ‘right’.
     
    ks.234 and eternumviti like this.
  3. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    It’s actually a very simple question; do we risk some known benefits for some unknown ones? The stark reality of leaving has only served to ram home the dumbness of the Leave option.
     
    PsB, Wolfmancatsup, ff1d1l and 4 others like this.
  4. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    BBC balance style toss.
     
  5. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    It’s not the only stark reality. What a pity the progressive LibDems enabled the tories in 2010 and set the groundwork for brexit by supporting unnecessary austerity. I wonder how many hard remainers helped that along.

    What a pity so many seats were taken from Labour in 2015. We ended up with a tory majority govt with a referendum on EU membership in their manifesto. I wonder how many hard remainers helped that along.
     
  6. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    But you agree that leaving was a dumb decision, yeah?
     
    ff1d1l and tonerei like this.
  7. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    I don’t take too much notice of this thread nowadays, but it seems that you hit on an important point. One is either a rabid racist Brexiteer or a starry eyed Europhile with very little in between. In a world where just saying the EU is only worth 7 out of 10 is akin to heresy or treason, balance, nuance and complexity is clearly a boat that sailed some time ago
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr, Nero and Mystic Mac like this.
  8. tonerei

    tonerei pfm Member

    I will get the popcorn out to see another dragging of the brain through barbed wire and quick sand. :)
     
  9. wacko

    wacko pfm Member

    Isn't there a shortage of popcorn ?
     
    Cheese likes this.
  10. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Britain 1968: Rivers of Blood
    Britain 2021: Rivers of Turd
     
  11. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Their biggest challenge would be, to quote the late DS Harold ‘Tanky’ Challenor of the Flying Squad, “like trying to swim against a tide of sewage”.
     
  12. tonerei

    tonerei pfm Member

    No all is cool with popcorn in the EU. No shortage here. Probably due to the hard remainers in the UK scoffing all the popcorn whilst awaiting a few Brexit positives to appear in this thread.
     
  13. Nic Robinson

    Nic Robinson Moderator

    Presumably you did think it at various points. But the fact that you'r conceding we very may well be proved to have been wrong to leave is illuminating. Would be very interesting to see a graph of time (since 2016) against your certainty of us being right to do it.

    Of have you always believed the sunlit uplands to be merely a possibility we will all have to wait patiently for? That's certainly playing "long".

    I like jam, but jam tomorrow seems always to evade me in the present.
     
  14. eternumviti

    eternumviti Wittering on the Vine

    Nic, and don't think I've ever failed to concede that we might have made the wrong decision. It is a fine balance between morality and pragmatism, and for me has never had anything whatsoever to do with 'sunlit uplands'.

    No graphs, but current EU shenanigans are doing absolutely nothing to make me think that the decision to leave did not have some firm moral foundations.
     
  15. Colin L

    Colin L High-tech low-life

    Your firm moral foundations will see people starve, livelihoods and industries destroyed and the UK empoverished.
    Principles are lovely as long as someone else is paying the price.
     
  16. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    As Lord Melbourne said: “Nobody ever did anything very foolish except from some strong principle.”
     
  17. Nic Robinson

    Nic Robinson Moderator

    Surely firm moral foundations would have informed changing the system from within. Sadly we have zero influence now. Well, I suppose we could invade.
     
  18. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    Those high bar moral foundations of deceit, tax avoidance, increasing the wealth of the richest and downright fear and loathing of foreigners (racism in many cases)?
     
    Enfield boy likes this.
  19. eternumviti

    eternumviti Wittering on the Vine

    Yes, and of course this is exactly the response that I was expecting. It is to a degree a fair comment, and a moral dilemma in its own right. I know that businesses have already gone under, livelihoods been damaged and sometimes destroyed, and, as documented on this thread earlier this year, people have despaired and taken their own lives. As a leave voter, that sits heavily on my conscience.

    EU policies have directly destroyed entire economies, businesses, livelihoods and lives, and continue to do so, both within and far beyond the shores of Europe. EU agricultural and fisheries policies constitute one of the most environmentally destructive forces on earth. The UK, as a member, directly and enthusiastically contributed to and influenced many of those policies, and the loss of the UK to some extent actually serves to mitigate those negative effects. At the same time, by leaving, UK governments will become far more accountable for unpopular policies that they would, as members, have been able to secrete behind the EU's institutions. Brexit reshores responsibility and governmental accountability.

    UK businesses have lost some degree of access to the Single Market, and some smaller businesses have effectively lost all of their access to European customers. This is often harsh, and sometimes overwhelming. However, in the bigger picture only a very small percentage of UK companies exported to the EU, and many of those will adapt and continue to do so, even in the face of the higher costs that are being imposed by the EU.

    Some people who are in the fortunate and rare position of being able to own property in EU member states will be limited on the amount of time they spend there. Diddums. Some people whose work might have been EU based will face difficulties that they wouldn't formerly have faced, but those difficulties will be by and large surmountable. I know plenty of US citizens who live and work in France and Italy. The vote of people who are in those positions to remain in the EU was, on balance, merely a self-interested (or selfish) one. I know a good few people who own property in France and who voted to leave accept the consequences of their decision, and who have adjusted their lives accordingly.

    The EU in earlier incarnations acted, on balance, as a force for good, particularly in terms of the rehabilitation of former dictatorships. The EU in its post Maastricht to Lisbon incarnation as an ever-centralising, actively anti-democratic and utterly unreformable theology is an increasingly malign and destructive force, of which the crucifixion of Greece a decade ago to the salvation of the German and French banks and on the altar of the deeply disfunctional single currency was but one, albeit extreme, manifestation.

    The UK suffered not at all in the Euro meltdown, of course, and we all continued to happily enjoy the EU's 'benefits', whilst abiding by its principles.

    But then principles are great, so long as its someone else suffering their consequences.
     
  20. eternumviti

    eternumviti Wittering on the Vine

    The EU has shown itself time and again to be unreformable. The Treaties enshrine only ever closer union. There is no facility for reform written into them, and meaningful reform would require revisiting the Treaties, and would be subject to national referenda. In effect, to do so would bring about the collapse of the EU. Do you for one moment imagine that the EU institutions would sanction their own destruction?

    Ha! EU membership has never served as a bar to deceit, tax-avoidance and corruption. In fact the course of the EU has entailed considerable amounts of all three.

    As for racism, it is rife within EU member countries, very often openly so.
     
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