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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIV

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Tony L, Aug 5, 2021.

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  1. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    A Home Office cutter deals with unregistered leisure inflatables after the French refused to intervene,

  2. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Their corruption, trough-feeding, billionaire tax exile backers etc is very well documented for all to see, as is a history of racism going way back beyond ‘Clandestine Chanel Commanders’, Theresa May’s ‘Go Home’ vans, Windrush, the widespread support of South African apartheid in the Thatcher era (‘Mandela: Terrorist’ t-shirts available from Oxbridge Conservative clubs etc), back through the unambiguous racial hatred of Enoch Powell, Smethwick and right into the days of human trafficking and slavery. All this is undeniable, it is just historical fact. No ‘conspiracy theory’ here at all. Attempts by people such as you to revise and deny is pure propaganda spin and you should be utterly ashamed.

    From a personal perspective I lived through the destruction of the industrial north. I left school (a shit secondary, certainly no public school for me) straight onto Thatcher’s dole queue.
    irons1965, ff1d1l, Bob McC and 3 others like this.
  3. Richard Lines

    Richard Lines pfm Member

    Little difference - seriously??? We are 'struggling' to see how we can pay for social care moving forward and you want us to accept vast numbers of refugees/ immigrants without limit?

    I don't disagree much needs to be done but it needs to start at the countries of origin where at all possible and 'we' need to be seen to be dealing with the impacts of climate change on a very substantive level. How this is achieved politically I have no idea as there is little to indicate much is changing.

    I'm not convinced some people really understand where all this is leading - accepting refugees here isn't helping anything and there is a limit however unpalatable that may be to some.


  4. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    Struggling to pay for social care while protecting the funds of wealthy backers and wilfully destroying our ability to trade. I'm not sure you understand where this is heading. You are preoccupied with a miniscule distraction in the scheme of damage being done to the UK economy.

    The level of refugees we take is the very least of our worries and if it was handled properly, would actually be an opportunity to a nation with an ageing population and labour shortages.
    irons1965, ff1d1l, Nick_G and 3 others like this.
  5. Minio

    Minio Not flakey and never soggy ...

    The limit has come for the Tory voters that stand and watch those landing on the beaches and walking up their High Street.
    It is an issue, however one reacts, and unfortunately benefits the Conservative Party mostly.
  6. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    We’re not going to be able to fund anything unless the labour shortage and demographic deficit of young working age, tax and N.I paying people in Scotland is addressed. Who’s going to fund your state pension and use of the NHS? We are around 300,000 young productive citizens short.
    roman likes this.
  7. roman

    roman pfm Member

    I never said without limit. I just fail to understand pulling up the ladder so soon. As with most arguments flip it round and see how you feel.

    Imagine a scenario where we or our descendants are the ones in dinghies risking all to reach a place of refuge where inhabitants living in comfort think the country is already full up.

    It's a chilling combination of callousness and entitlement. Perhaps we all get there in the end but I'm some way off.

    As for social care, that's largely a political failure not really an economic impossibility. Besides we are an ageing population and have shortages in various employment sectors. Think of the refugees as having got on Tebbits bike. They will be good and willing workers.

    You seem to be implying that refugees are an economic drain. Perhaps in the short term. Thereafter the truth is quite the opposite.

    As to dealing with problems at source and people's failure to grasp where it's all heading. I quite agree but neither precludes acting to help desperate people now. The future you imagine is already beginning to be experienced by many, albeit it'll get much worse. Why not help them?
  8. davidsrsb

    davidsrsb pfm Member

    Thanks to the lack of urgency in reducing greenhouse emissions, by about 2030 you are going to start seeing large chunks of London, Essex and the Fens disappearing into the sea. There will be millions of internal refugees
  9. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Do you think they might want to come to higher ground? We’ll have to study Patel’s border control tactics thoroughly.
  10. NeilR

    NeilR pfm Member

    ex teacher, apparently.
  11. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Everyone should read Daniel Trilling's book about immigration, Lights in the Distance:
    Politics in the UK has been corrupted by decades of scapegoating and demonising immigrants. The moral clarity of Trilling's work is a light in the darkness.

    Despite that opening sentence, he's not especially left wing. But he is a consistent liberal in that he defends the classical liberal value of universalism (the idea that - to use a somewhat abused phrase - all lives matter equally). Mass migration, is happening now, and is only going to get worse as the climate crisis deepens. We must work together on a global (or at least regional) scale to find a humane response.

    It's not a major theme of the book but, in passing, Trilling is critical of the EU. He claims that it has put too much emphasis on erecting barriers (playing to the populist right), and not enough on a humane, managed solution.

    In summary:

    irons1965, Hook, ff1d1l and 4 others like this.
  12. eternumviti

    eternumviti Wittering on the Vine

    I say again, I get this, Tony, I'm fine with it. You've said it all many times, and I hear you. There's no more revision or denial on my part than there us on yours, and yours is only denial in its absolutism, and a failure to qualify facts with historical perspective.

    What I don't get is your blind attachment to what you see as the ideals of the EU, your refusal to countenance that its 'ideals' are as much or more a matter of presentation as truth, that it is essentially, in its inherent neoliberalism, its prioritising of capital over of labour and in its imperial ambitions, a project that stands against virtually everything that you purport to believe in.
  13. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.



    The British red carpet rolled out for (quite literally) a fascist political leader. There was no need.
  14. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I have never been uncritical of the EU, there are many things wrong about it, many things that can be improved, but I believe both in democracy and removing as many arbitrary national barriers as possible. As such I believe very firmly in the concept of the EU. I welcomed the obvious freedom it provided and the substantial additional protections to my human rights and civil liberties. I now find myself back being merely a “subject” to a monarchy I do not recognise as any authority over me, let alone hold the slightest respect for, and living in a largely failed state with a rigged non-representative electoral system designed from the ground up to maintain elite Conservative Party minority rule. I see my civil rights being eroded almost daily and countless previously open doors slammed in my face. Like just about everyone else my business and potential income has been damaged too.

    So no, the EU was/is not perfect, but it is sure as hell a lot better than shitty Little Tory Brexitland.
    irons1965, ff1d1l, topa and 9 others like this.
  15. tonerei

    tonerei pfm Member

    You needed to get a grip on your desire for Brexit. Deflecting to discussions about dinghies and refugees just suits Farage (makes him appear relevant) and for Bojo et all hides the real Brexit mess.
    irons1965, Bob McC, ff1d1l and 3 others like this.
  16. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Why oh why do they hate us ( the Tory Party) so much?
  17. Markyb

    Markyb pfm Member

    Hear hear. Piffle on about another ten years. God help us all. Cos if the Labour got in they might go back to human rights and not dumping raw sewage in rivers and awful things like that.
  18. Mystic Mac

    Mystic Mac cauliflower ears not golden ears....


    Get a blummin grip you bunch of whingy whiny Remoaners. My grandad fought in the Second World War and he would have been so proud of what the Government has done for this country.

    Mind you, he was in the SS.
    irons1965, Caliente, Rob998 and 5 others like this.
  19. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Last Night of The Proms on just now and as many EU flags in the crowd as Union flags. Britain’s place is at the heart of Europe, not on the fringes. The music is glorious btw- Elgar especially.
    ff1d1l likes this.
  20. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    The new national sports hero was born in Canada from Romanian and Chinese parents. Citizen of nowhere?
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