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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIII

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Came across this snippet in the FT weekend this morning - part of an interview with Vladislav Surkov, one of the chief architects behind Putin's rise to power over the last decade. A clever guy. Apologies, can't access the full article, but well worth a read for anybody who can access it.

cMEWTTim.png


extract:

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Slogans over details. Take Back Control and Gerritdun :)
 
-alan- said:
Came across this snippet in the FT weekend this morning - part of an interview with Vladislav Surkov, one of the chief architects behind Putin's rise to power over the last decade. A clever guy. Apologies, can't access the full article, but well worth a read for anybody who can access it.

cMEWTTim.png


extract:

61LzMB7h.jpg


Slogans over details. Take Back Control and Gerritdun :)
Click to expand...

Kinda scary as that is exactly what people here have been outlining with regard to Brexit. Plain as day really but one mustn't grumble and respect the vote. Democracy is only a day thing. One vote. One day. Game over.
 
eternumviti said:
Well, you gave yourself a good few days to work that lot up. Bit of a damp squib, don't you think?
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Projecting again EV?

Keen to hear more about the flavour of Brexit you voted for and about your moral opportunism. And maybe you could define what you actually mean by sovereignty and why you think it is more important than peace in NI.

Here's a good article on NI which may, or may not, inform your reply. It mentions your pen-friend Kate and pre-referendum issues related to NI. A good Sunday read.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...urity-breaking-up-union-ask-people-of-belfast

Speaking of Sundays, did you see the Pope is pushing Robert Schuman, an early architect of the EU project, toward sainthood? Even God is pro-EU. You are clearly on the wrong side of the Brexit argument but there is still time to atone for your sins. God is forgiving, and waiting for you at your local church.
 
-alan- said:
Came across this snippet in the FT weekend this morning - part of an interview with Vladislav Surkov, one of the chief architects behind Putin's rise to power over the last decade. A clever guy. Apologies, can't access the full article, but well worth a read for anybody who can access it.

cMEWTTim.png


extract:

61LzMB7h.jpg


Slogans over details. Take Back Control and Gerritdun :)
Click to expand...

Alan, I admit I'm not very bright (or well-educated), but I get the feeling that you posted that piece because you can see how it feeds into a certain narrative.

I think that narrative is incredibly arrogant and self-serving, and it makes a great many very unattractive assumptions. The most disturbing thing about it is the lack of self-awareness, in that it pitches the 'progressive' metropolitan left-liberal leaning University educated white collar carreerist against the traditional working-class labour voter, the 'left behind', in an incredibly sneering and dismissive fashion.

There was a great deal of navel-gazing following the collapse of Labour's 'red wall' at the last election. Did the penny really drop that this patronising dismissal of the traditional left by its metropolitan namesake might have had something to do with it?
 
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Kirk said:
Projecting again EV?

Keen to hear more about the flavour of Brexit you voted for and about your moral opportunism. And maybe you could define what you actually mean by sovereignty and why you think it is more important than peace in NI.

Here's a good article on NI which may, or may not, inform your reply. It mentions your pen-friend Kate and pre-referendum issues related to NI. A good Sunday read.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...urity-breaking-up-union-ask-people-of-belfast

Speaking of Sundays, did you see the Pope is pushing Robert Schuman, an early architect of the EU project, toward sainthood? Even God is pro-EU. You are clearly on the wrong side of the Brexit argument but there is still time to atone for your sins. God is forgiving, and waiting for you at your local church.
Click to expand...

'Projecting' seems to be your insult du jour at the moment. I'm not at all sure that I know what you mean by it, or even that you are certain of its meaning, but never mind, it probably cuts well with your audience.

Yes, I did see the news about Schuman. I'm looking forward to the announcement of the two miracles that will serve to confirm his Sainthood.

God knows, it could be Ted Heath next!
 
eternumviti said:
Alan, I admit I'm not very bright (or well-educated), but I get the feeling that you posted that piece because you can see how it feeds into a certain narrative.

I think that narrative is incredibly arrogant and self-serving, and it makes a great many very unattractive assumptions. The most disturbing thing about it is the lack of self-awareness, in that it pitches the 'progressive' metropolitan left-liberal leaning University educated white collar carreerist against the traditional working-class labour voter, the 'left behind', in an incredibly sneering and dismissive fashion.

There was a great deal of navel-gazing following the collapse of Labour's 'red wall' at the last election. Did the penny really drop that this patronising dismissal of the traditional left by its metropolitan namesake might have had something to do with it?
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Or it's too close to what these guys actually do and how receptive some are to it for you to be comfortable and you would rather blame shift (just for a change) to those 'elites'. Which is a sick joke because the main Brexit protagonists and funders are nothing, if not members of the 'elite'.
 
SteveS1 said:
Or it's too close to what these guys actually do and how receptive some are to it for you to be comfortable and you would rather blame shift (just for a change) to those 'elites'. Which is a sick joke because the main Brexit protagonists and funders are nothing, if not members of the 'elite'.
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I don't think I mentioned either 'blame', or elites. You seem to be replying to a completely different post.
 
eternumviti said:
Alan, I admit I'm not very bright (or well-educated), but I get the feeling that you posted that piece because you can see how it feeds into a certain narrative.

I think that narrative is incredibly arrogant and self-serving, and it makes a great many very unattractive assumptions. The most disturbing thing about it is the lack of self-awareness, in that it pitches the 'progressive' metropolitan left-liberal leaning University educated white collar carreerist against the traditional working-class labour voter, the 'left behind', in an incredibly sneering and dismissive fashion.

There was a great deal of navel-gazing following the collapse of Labour's 'red wall' at the last election. Did the penny really drop that this patronising dismissal of the traditional left by its metropolitan namesake might have had something to do with it?
Click to expand...

Yes, I think it's fair to challenge the post and raise the question. I agree that narrative is a nasty and slack piece of thinking. I never realised how easy it was to fall into that particular trap until I listened to an interview with Antony Scaramucci who called out exactly the same thing happening in the US with the Trump supporters.

Your point deserves a longer response than I can pull together now, but in essence, for me the frustration and concerns with the Trump Administration and the leading Brexiteers is driven very much more by the sloganeering and manipulation of the media by those particular individuals to get themselves into positions of power, rather than contempt for those who undoubtedly have been left behind.
 
eternumviti said:
'Projecting' seems to be your insult du jour at the moment. I'm not at all sure that I know what you mean by it, or even that you are certain of its meaning, but never mind, it probably cuts well with your audience.

Yes, I did see the news about Schuman. I'm looking forward to the announcement of the two miracles that will serve to confirm his Sainthood.

God knows, it could be Ted Heath next!
Click to expand...

It's a word used by many members here. Feedback can be useful sometimes.

Look forward to reading your answers.
 
-alan- said:
Yes, I think it's fair to challenge the post and raise the question. I agree that narrative is a nasty and slack piece of thinking. I never realised how easy it was to fall into that particular trap until I listened to an interview with Antony Scaramucci who called out exactly the same thing happening in the US with the Trump supporters.

Your point deserves a longer response than I can pull together now, but in essence, for me the frustration and concerns with the Trump Administration and the leading Brexiteers is driven very much more by the sloganeering and manipulation of the media by those particular individuals to get themselves into positions of power, rather than contempt for those who undoubtedly have been left behind.
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Is it a fair challenge? I think EV is looking for a scapegoat for his own beliefs. For me he exaggerates the comfortable left wing champagne socialist and blames them for causing the 'red wall' voters to go Tory. Whilst I understand the cossetted organic smoked salmon socialist is an irritant and red rag to both working class and good old fashioned Tory right wingers for me it is a lame excuse for their own behaviour and unwillingness to read the script and understand what happens when you make the wrong choice.

For me that article has nothing to do with the cohort singled out by EV. The article is about Putin's Russia. No champagne socialists there. Surkov is a fixer ala Cummings for an oligarchy of one (Putin) + hangers one. Regardless Mister Surkov beautifully encapsulates how easy it is to rouse and shape the rabble. To me it is not dissimilar to how the Tory and wealthy class in the UK have operated for centuries. This guy has just blatantly put it out there. There is no fear as most of the targeted audience will never read the article.

Sorry but for me EV is just taking the lazy Tory route of trying to hang a hat on a group of people to try and wash away the reality of Brexit and all that was explained to him and others. It is telling that the individual who likes the post again for me doesn't even understand what is being discussed but thinks it scores a point against the tribe he doesn't like.

It is blatantly obvious just like NI is going to crack open over the next year or so the North of England will follow suit at some point in the future. All these people will forget that they danced on Grieves, Ledwin, Clarke and Soubry etc. They allowed their prejudices to impair their moral judgement and voted for their enemy.
 
Kirk said:
It's a word used by many members here. Feedback can be useful sometimes.

Look forward to reading your answers.
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Are you now. I would respond that until I hear an apology, you can go whistle, but you've indicated unequivocally that no apology is forthcoming, so you might as well start whistling.
 
eternumviti said:
Are you now. I would respond that until I hear an apology, you can go whistle, but you've indicated unequivocally that no apology is forthcoming, so you might as well start whistling.
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The questions are indeed challenging. They represent the complex realities of Brexit rather than the Big Lie wrapped in a fantasy we have all endured for the last five years. Should you change your mind re: a response, I'm sure it will enliven the debate.
 
....and when you are a third party / country what happens to you is not the EU being "vindictive", its merely hard-nosed realpolitik, the bigger, stronger party to the agreement looking after its own interests, not yours. Just like every informed commentator said they would. Notions of "specialness and superiority" wither away in the cold light of reality.
 
Colin L said:
....and when you are a third party / country what happens to you is not the EU being "vindictive", its merely hard-nosed realpolitik, the bigger, stronger party to the agreement looking after its own interests, not yours. Just like every informed commentator said they would. Notions of "specialness and superiority" wither away in the cold light of reality.
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How can we re-enforce our view that the EU is being unreasonable? I know, we'll quickly provoke as many examples of what being out really means, having told people nothing will change, that'll do it.
 
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