Brexit: give me a positive effect... XII

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

To your first paragraph I would ask you where, beyond the realm of technical regulations, has the EU proved that its size really holds serious sway? Where, in regard of the EU, has big been good?

<snip>

You trimmed my quote to remove the second half. I'm interested to know your thoughts?

Big has been good in terms of global influence. The EU's GDPR, for example, has led a drive towards better privacy legislation globally, either in order to align with the EU for better data flows, or in strengthening the local drive for better data protection legislation, eg in California. There are, I'm quite sure, many similar examples where EU standards are becoming a defacto global standard.

Big is also a bulwark against external aggression and pressure. Economic and political leverage is helpful on the global stage.

As to my thoughts on the second half, it's a bit hypothetical but I rather disagree. I think the UK, as the leading 'awkward' member state, was quite capable of opting out if it decided to. Over the years we'd negotiated and defended many opt outs that worked for us. This doesn't paint us as the meek, compliant, infantilised member state you posit.

 

[eternumviti]

Kate Bingham and her team were appointed by the government. The UK taxpayer bought and paid for the vaccines, and in certain instances their elaboration and production, and they did so early. The NHS is the UK national health service, bought and paid for by UK taxpayers.

 

[eternumviti]

Big has been good in terms of global influence. The EU's GDPR, for example, has led a drive towards better privacy legislation globally, either in order to align with the EU for better data flows, or in strengthening the local drive for better data protection legislation, eg in California. There are, I'm quite sure, many similar examples where EU standards are becoming a defacto global standard.

Big is also a bulwark against external aggression and pressure. Economic and political leverage is helpful on the global stage.

As to my thoughts on the second half, it's a bit hypothetical but I rather disagree. I think the UK, as the leading 'awkward' member state, was quite capable of opting out if it decided to. Over the years we'd negotiated and defended many opt outs that worked for us. This doesn't paint us as the meek, compliant, infantilised member state you posit.

I think your first point accords perfectly with my earlier statement that EU influence is mainly in technical standards. It also shouldn't be forgotten that many and probably most of these are elaborated hand me downs from the UN and other global standards bodies such as the ISO.

I disagree with your assertion relating to external aggression. The EU is pretty disastrous in regard of foreign affairs, and the members are inclined to place their own interests first. A recent example of the former is the ambush and humiliation of 'High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy' (a very elaborate title for a convicted fraudster) Josep Borrell by Russia, of the latter Germany's continuation of the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline in the face of the condemnation of most of the west.

In foreign affairs the EU lacks tact, diplomacy, skill, experience, unity, the big stick to back it up with, and frankly carries little clout. I would think that France alone carries more international clout than the EU, and it has boots to back it up with.

On the final point, the infantilisation of member states is very real, and evident in the fact alone that they allowed von der Leyen's third raters to take control of the vaccine acquisition and rollout. Personally, I suspect as a member we would have also deferred.

 

[Brian]

Getting control over immigration was one of the major selling points of Brexit and was one of the reasons many people voted for it. So it seems reasonable to assume that this anti immigration poster resonated with a sizeable chunk of Brexit voters. The more I think about it, the more I think 3-4 million is a conservative guess. Might have been half of Brexit voters.

The poster was clearly designed to stoke up anti immigrant sentiment and was straight out of Goebbels playbook.

I’ll try to be clearer. Of course control of immigration was one reason among other reasons. Has anyone denied that? I’m talking about the type of control people want over immigration.

The statement made is below.

But to those for whom the ‘breaking point’ poster resonated, ‘control’ was largely synonymous with ‘prevent’.

I believe many millions are in favour of controlling immigration by use of a points based system, relatively few wish to prevent immigration, certainly nowhere near 8 million, I doubt even 3 to 4 million.

 

[Kirk]

A certain nimbleness with public finances, no?

And lockdowns. And death rates. Almost world beating.

 

[SteveS1]

The EU doesn't produce, own or export vaccines.

Not remotely true, quelle surprise.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/...outperformed-the-eu-on-covid-19-vaccinations/

"It is extremely hard to get accurate figures on vaccine production and supply, as all parties tend to regard them as commercial or state secrets. However, it is public knowledge that as of 23 March the UK had put around 30 million jabs in arms. It is also publicly stated that about 13 million of these are Pfizer jabs, all of which are imported from the EU. Alongside this, the UK has received 5 million from the Serum Institute in India, and is strongly suspected to have received non-trivial amounts of the AstraZeneca vaccine from the Halix plant in the Netherlands, a lack of information about this being one of the sore points in the UK-EU debate."

"The cause of this is different degrees of vaccine nationalism. The vaccine producing countries of Europe have made enough to vaccinate about half their population with a first jab (the 100 million jabs were made in EU states with a combined population of about 200 million – Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain and Italy). If they had kept this for themselves, they would be far ahead of the UK – which would have had to make do with its own more limited production – and at around the same stage as the US.

However, the European producers have exported about a third of their production globally, to countries such as Mexico, Canada, Chile, the US (not much) and, above all, the largest recipient, the UK. The overwhelming reason why the UK is so far ahead with its vaccination programme is that it has received so many vaccines from the EU.

The European producers have also exported about another third to the other countries of the EU, their neighbours. An early decision was taken by EU states that it would be unacceptable for some states to protect their populations while others looked on with empty hands and full hospitals, and so vaccines are distributed within the EU on a per capita basis. This was not a legal obligation inherent in EU membership, but a pragmatic, if also ethical, political decision. If one wants relationships to survive a crisis, there has to be a degree of solidarity.

By contrast, not a single dose of vaccine has been exported from the US or UK."

Meanwhile we await full details the AZ contract disputes and whether any other pressures were brought by a government desperate for something better to report than their lamentable COVID response all the way through.

 

[tonerei]

The AZ vaccine has saved many lives and even if the blood clots are attributed to the vaccine it is still a risk worth taking when there is no other alternative available. Maybe the Novavax will replace AZ (manufactured and bottled in the UK) when it is approved and production is ramped up, maybe these are the jabs offered to ROI by Boris.

We will see in the future whether the EU benefits from trade barriers with the UK. Some of the trade on both sides will be sourced/supplied with other countries in an effort to maintain the benefits for the 27. Also barriers to tourism will have an effect on countries such as Spain, where unemployment has dropped but is still at 13%; they are getting bad press at the moment with visas, will this blow over or will holidaymakers go to other destinations.

Party political broadcast for the Tories and morphs straight into the usual UKIP made up quasi eco nonsense.
UKippers will be holidaying in Bournemouth, Borth and Brighton this summer.


Meanwhile back in the real world https://www.irishtimes.com/business...xit-s-impact-on-uk-chocolate-makers-1.4528338

 

[Kirk]

A lot of crowing about vaccines being a Brexit positive (at last something concrete to mention).
But in fact the UK success is more about the wonderful NHS.
And then there is the fact that the UK (and USA) have not allowed the export of vaccines. Whereas the EU has exported millions of vaccines (largely to the UK), while ensuring that the limited vaccines they have are shared fairly within the EU.
Nimble my ar£e...just selfish. Fitting as if one word could sum up the motivations for Brexit it would be selfish.
America First. England First. Me First.

Don't forget "greed". Our PM is very proud of it.

 

[tonerei]

The EU doesn't produce, own or export vaccines.

Ah yes a soundbite at Prime ministers questions. Fact UK are not exporting vaccines. Fact EU are. Fact US are not exporting vaccines. Facts are simple and facts are straight. Bluster is just bluster.

 

[tonerei]

Don't forget "greed". Our PM is very proud of it.

Amazing that fell under the carpet very quickly. Of course mistakenly speaking the truth was a slip by Bojo.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I inferred EV’s point to be that the EU per se doesn’t do the producing, owning or exporting (ie, this is down to the pharma firms themselves). It’s a trite point (apologies EV if I’ve missed your point) as neither does the U.K. it’d be a bit like criticising Ford for not making marmalade. It’s irrelevant. ‘The EU’ as referred to in the posts leading up, is more about the political will to export, despite pressing local need. I wouldn’t wish to criticise that approach, as we need more outward looking politics on this planet.

 

[tonerei]

I inferred EV’s point to be that the EU per se doesn’t do the producing, owning or exporting (ie, this is down to the pharma firms themselves). It’s a trite point (apologies EV if I’ve missed your point) as neither does the U.K. it’d be a bit like criticising Ford for not making marmalade. It’s irrelevant.

We all know that Steve as does EV. We all know that governments are controlling decisions about exportation. Hence EV goes into automatic UN debating mode to make as you outline an irrelevant point.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Fair enough, misinterpreted your post, my bad.

 

[richardg]

That is happening with the AZ vaccine worldwide. There is an issue with this vaccine. It is not a makey uppy EU thing. Around the world including the UK there are reports of clots.
At some point in the future if this continues and production is ramped up by other manufacturers the market will deal with it. Most people will take it as the risk is fairly small but long term if they can not sort whatever is causing it the vaccine will be sidelined. This has nothing to do with Brexit positives.

Brexiteers on this thread just continue the fog of nonsense and irrelevant discussions to try and hid from the reality of what Brexit has bestowed on the UK.
In all walks of life be it people who lived and travelled to the EU throughout the year, fishermen, road haulage, exporters, farmers and business's throughout the UK who are now unable to function without seasonal immigrants, the loss of diversity and the negative narrow minded and nationalist mindset that is now rising. Scotland and Northern Ireland will at the very least be in turmoil. The suicides that have been mentioned recently and the list will grow and grow.

You forget to acknowledge that the French are different regarding vaccinations.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...vid-vaccine-sceptics-what-would-pasteur-think

They dont need much incentive to avoid having any vaccination. Tell them that one is dodgy and you have national hysteria. Not something you may read too much about in UK. Obviously you have not read about it, otherwise you would not have written the piffle and bile that you wrote.

 

[SteveS1]

You forget to acknowledge that the French are different regarding vaccinations.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...vid-vaccine-sceptics-what-would-pasteur-think

They dont need much incentive to avoid having any vaccination. Tell them that one is dodgy and you have national hysteria. Not something you may read too much about in UK. Obviously you have not read about it, otherwise you would not have written the piffle and bile that you wrote.

Not at all, I think everyone here is alarmed by the seriously high levels of anti-vax sentiment around Europe and the US. We are fortunate not to be facing as much of that - although it's still an issue. Some of that may be long term faith in the NHS.

We are fortunate to have large population centres in relatively close proxomity and a limited land mass to cover too. That isn't to excuse shambolic organisation in the EU and US, although since the election Biden seems to have got a grip on the latter. They still face huge resistance to the vaccines though.

 

[tonerei]

You forget to acknowledge that the French are different regarding vaccinations.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...vid-vaccine-sceptics-what-would-pasteur-think

They dont need much incentive to avoid having any vaccination. Tell them that one is dodgy and you have national hysteria. Not something you may read too much about in UK. Obviously you have not read about it, otherwise you would not have written the piffle and bile that you wrote.

Piffle and bile . I think I just told the truth but no matter. I am aware there is mistrust of vaccines not alone in France but other parts of Europe but that doesn't change the facts.
Meanwhile back in old blighty https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0407/1208305-northern-ireland-violence/ Nothing ever changes. Arlene is part of the group that are often used to prop up the Tories in time of need. More bile and piffle.

I don't read in the UK as I live in Ireland.

 

[tonerei]

Fair enough, misinterpreted your post, my bad.

You are too nice! This is a horrid Brexit thread.

 

[Colin Barron]

Party political broadcast for the Tories and morphs straight into the usual UKIP made up quasi eco nonsense.
UKippers will be holidaying in Bournemouth, Borth and Brighton this summer.


Meanwhile back in the real world https://www.irishtimes.com/business...xit-s-impact-on-uk-chocolate-makers-1.4528338

With every confiscated sandwich or refusal of entry into the EU of goods and people because of paperwork not being perfect, the EU looks more like the old soviet union. If they were awash with cash it would maybe be sustainable but many in the EU are broke and need all the trade in goods and tourism they can muster.

 

[richardg]

Not at all, I think everyone here is alarmed by the seriously high levels of anti-vax sentiment around Europe and the US. We are fortunate not to be facing as much of that - although it's still an issue. Some of that may be long term faith in the NHS.

We are fortunate to have large population centres in relatively close proxomity and a limited land mass to cover too. That isn't to excuse shambolic organisation in the EU and US, although since the election Biden seems to have got a grip on the latter. They still face huge resistance to the vaccines though.

Not at all. Noone in UK I know has said they don't trust the vaccine. I live with one french person and work with another, both are refusing to take it. The French are particularly crazy about it. Stupid, my GP says.

 

[SteveS1]

Not at all. Noone in UK I know has said they don't trust the vaccine. I live with one french person and work with another, both are refusing to take it. The French are particularly crazy about it. Stupid, my GP says.

Well I can assure you there are plenty here who will not take it. That doesn't mean they have spoken to you, or that you would say if they had. Nor does it mean it's as big a problem here as elsewhere which it clearly isn't. The French are indeed extremely anti, as are large swathes of the US. None of that makes much sense to me, but there we are.