Brexit: give me a positive effect... V

[droodzilla]

I don't know whether you refer to it as a 'meme' or a cliché, but the currently fashionable leftlibremain one by which Cameron/Osborne austerity is in some kind of divine isolation responsible for brexit is of course utter cobblers. The British public have a had a major, and increasing, issue with the European project since Cameron and Osborne were still hanging on their respective mothers' teats.

<snip>

Nope.

Concern about the EU was a minority sport, played only by obsessives and cranks, until 2016.

Wonder what happened in 2016?

 

[eternumviti]

What you have to realise is that the EU is evolving as a union and will ultimately become a federal power- something I see as a very good thing. It has driven up standards, championed human rights, consumer and workers rights. Instead Britain (or what’s going to be left of it) is falling back on illusions of colonial power and isolating itself in an increasingly integrated world. Sucking up to Donald Trump? Even Americans express surprise. All that’s left is the fantasy that the EU will crumble first, that they’ll be damaged as much as Britain is from its most recent misadventure and some how Britain will get its Empire back. Quite frankly you’re welcome to it- just don’t expect anyone else to join you it.

Your first sentence exposes you as an ideologue, which is fine, so long as you accept it for what it is. It also places you in a minority of something between, in an educated guess, 5%-15% of the EU population, probably nearer the lower figure. What I find difficult is your overt contempt for those - the vast majority - who don't happen to agree with you. This is something akin to fundamentalism, and it ain't pretty.

The irony of our contrasting positions is that, on Europe, you - a liberal/hard left fundamentalist - are a Heathite (and Macmillanite), and I - a middle of the road conservative - am a Bennite.

“ The British public have had a major issue with the EU project”. False.

Ha! There's feckin' comedian in the room!

This will be why they voted more than two to one in favour of retaining membership in 1975......

We've been around this one so many times. Membership of the EEC, referred to at the time by those driving the remain vote as 'The Common Market'. Since then we have had the Single European Act, Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon, all of which, but most significantly Maastricht and Lisbon, involved substantial transfers of sovereign power, and in the case of those two mentioned should certainly should involved plebiscites. The EU of today is a very different creature to the 'Common Market' that the country was sold in 1975.

I think that by 'the British public', EV means himself.

Yeah, and 17.2 million others!

Are you arguing for absolute sovereignty? As you know, sovereignty can be shared on many levels, and it can be in Britain's interests to do so - or is 'sovereignty' just a fancy way of saying 'enemy', in this case invading Germans?

No, I'm not.

 

[TheDecameron]

Can you just imagine the ear wigging Cameron will get at high Tory watering holes. Not just for Brexit but for the parcel of rogues that’s seized power on the back of it.

 

[TheDecameron]

Nope.

Concern about the EU was a minority sport, played only by obsessives and cranks, until 2016.

Wonder what happened in 2016?

A lot of money went into convincing them that the EU and not the Tory government was the source of their ills and they harnessed that most powerful of forces, fearful ethnic nationalism. Trump went on to weaponise it and it’s no coincidence that the same individuals were shuttling between London and New York. The Frstival of Right Wing Ideas- sponsors- Cambridge Analytica, Murdoch, the poisonous Koch Bros and an assortment of evil lessers.

 

[Brian]

'Bitty'...

Then onto pigs...

 

[Brian]

Nope.

Concern about the EU was a minority sport, played only by obsessives and cranks, until 2016.

Wonder what happened in 2016?

Which surely casts doubt on the often cited decades of anti-EU brainwashing of the UK public, which personally, other than jokes about the ‘straight banana’ disgrace, I’ve never been acutely aware of.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Which surely casts doubt on the often cited decades of anti-EU brainwashing of the UK public, which personally, other than jokes about the ‘straight banana’ disgrace, I’ve never been acutely aware of.

It has varied over time, though:

source: https://fullfact.org/europe/what-does-british-public-think-about-europe/

 

[Brian]

It has varied over time, though:

source: https://fullfact.org/europe/what-does-british-public-think-about-europe/

That's an interesting chart.

We bought a new property in 1988. In the early to middle 90's, properties where we lived had dropped in value by ~30%. When we sold it in 1998, there had been a bit of a recovery but it still sold at a loss of 14% against the purchase price.

This chart and the economic environment suggests the variation in anti-EU feeling has more to do with the economy, than say, to do with racism or brainwashing of the public. It also highlights an effect of tory austerity from 2010, which seems to be an incomprehensible thing I've been saying about the LibDems going into a coalition with the tories in 2010 and basically, having repeated tory govts.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

This chart and the economic environment suggests the variation in anti-EU feeling has more to do with the economy, than say, to do with racism or brainwashing of the public. It also highlights an effect of tory austerity from 2010, which seems to be an incomprehensible thing I've been saying about the LibDems going into a coalition with the tories in 2010 and basically, having repeated tory govts.

I don't have an equivalent graph of the economy over this time, but from what I recall, the UK was in a deep recession in the early to mid 1980s, a smaller one in the mid '90s, and a steady improvement in the noughties. Which doesn't seem to correlate to that graph, unless I've misunderstood.

 

[Joe Hutch]

I'd take it as illustrating that in the Blair era, the EU brand was de-toxified, and came to be seen as A Good Thing, as EU money was pumped into deprived areas of the UK. Then, with the financial crash of 2008 and the ensuing austerity programme, the EU became A Bad Thing.

 

[Colin Barron]

Are you advocating a BRINO deal?

No, the only brexit deal at the moment is no deal. I do think there will be a deal which will be a compromise, but not BRINO.

 

[stephen bennett]

Which surely casts doubt on the often cited decades of anti-EU brainwashing of the UK public, which personally, other than jokes about the ‘straight banana’ disgrace, I’ve never been acutely aware of.

You obviously never read the Telegraph, Mail, Sun or Express.

Can’t blame you really!

Johnson made his name by spending years making up lies about the EU. Jolly japes.

Stephen

 

[Brian]

I don't have an equivalent graph of the economy over this time, but from what I recall, the UK was in a deep recession in the early to mid 1980s, a smaller one in the mid '90s, and a steady improvement in the noughties. Which doesn't seem to correlate to that graph, unless I've misunderstood.

The economy was in a bad state late 80's through the 90's. Black Wednesday, stripping the money forest even then to prop up the pound, ERM debacle etc. It wasn't a small recession at the start of the 90's, it was a bad one, unemployment was up, lots of negative equity around as the property market slumped and people were suffering.

The housing market and economy worsened right through to 1995 and didn’t begin to pick up until 1997. It’s worth reading the info at the link to get a proper understanding.
Source: https://econ.economicshelp.org/2010/02/uk-economy-in-1990s.html

By 1998 when we moved, selling our house for only 14% less than we paid for it was due to the start of a recovery, but overall, it was a bad decade.

 

[Kirk]

Am I missing something or was a large proportion of fishing rights sold off by holders in England to big Continental interests? Begs the question- what is it they expect to get back?

Correct - they couldn't sell up fast enough, and those who remained were more than happy to sell into the Single Market.

Boris is no slouch when betraying people though, so taking back control of the fish is probably never going to happen.

 

[Kirk]

I don't have an equivalent graph of the economy over this time, but from what I recall, the UK was in a deep recession in the early to mid 1980s, a smaller one in the mid '90s, and a steady improvement in the noughties. Which doesn't seem to correlate to that graph, unless I've misunderstood.

We had recessions in 80/81, 90/91, 08/09 and we're in one now. GDP per capita in England steadily increased from 91-07. Decent economic performance then in the 90s and most of the 00s.

 

[Colin Barron]

I'd take it as illustrating that in the Blair era, the EU brand was de-toxified, and came to be seen as A Good Thing, as EU money was pumped into deprived areas of the UK. Then, with the financial crash of 2008 and the ensuing austerity programme, the EU became A Bad Thing.

It was not EU money it was UK money, sent back with a plaque telling all that it was EU investment.

 

[SteveS1]

It was not EU money it was UK money, sent back with a plaque telling all that it was EU investment.

Rubbish. UK contributions pay for shared services and access that the UK is now having to pay more for. Your accounting up to it's usual standard. EU long term regeneraton of poorer areas without being plagued by UK national political short termism, indecision and interference was a considerable benefit. Those expecting Johnson to make up the shortfall will be in for a long wait as he repays his backers instead.

 

[wyjsar]

Which surely casts doubt on the often cited decades of anti-EU brainwashing of the UK public, which personally, other than jokes about the ‘straight banana’ disgrace, I’ve never been acutely aware of.

You're not supposed to be aware, let alone acutely aware, of being brainwashed. It rather diminishes its effectiveness.

 

[Brian]

You're not supposed to be aware, let alone acutely aware, of being brainwashed. It rather diminishes its effectiveness.

Ah, of course.

I wonder if there is any pro-EU brainwashing going on people are unaware of. How would anyone know?

 

[ff1d1l]

It was not EU money it was UK money, sent back with a plaque telling all that it was EU investment.

Nope.Yep.