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Brexit: give me a positive effect... V

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Seems fairly clear that "Vote Labour = Stop Brexit" wasn't really a thing, then.
Not at all. Any stat put forward comes from what might be seen as a normal situation. It becomes anything but normal in the event of millions of remain voters voting Labour one time, similar to leave voters switching to tory. It worked for the tories, they won loads of seats they wouldn’t expect to win that might have looked impossible.

The whole thing would have changed had it been clear there was some coordination going on.

@zarni Nobody can realistically expect Labour to team up with the LibDems given the attitude of Swinson. She was the problem, not Labour. The SNP wins would have been better going to Labour this time, since Labour is the only party that can win an election other than the tories. Stopping brexit isn’t the primary concern for some people who protest loudly.
 
Brian, it’s pin the tail on the donkey time,

bnhDzN6.jpg
What on earth are you droning on about?

The seeds for brexit were sowed in 2010 and the tories have had no help from me. I specifically vote against them at every election.
 
What on earth are you droning on about?

The seeds for brexit were sowed in 2010 and the tories have had no help from me. I specifically vote against them at every election.
Watch youtube Ted Heath referendum interviews from 1975. A federal Europe was always on the cards, as well as the political deceit that down played the loss of democratic control.
 
Ah, yes, the original lie.

'There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.'

Ted Heath, 1973.
 
So, ET and CB, lack of democratic control, your usual mantra. Name one fabulous policy that Tories would or could have introduced In the last 30 years, that EU membership stopped.
 
So, ET and CB, lack of democratic control, your usual mantra. Name one fabulous policy that Tories would or could have introduced In the last 30 years, that EU membership stopped.

It's an elite argument perpetuated by our 'kipper friends and their useful idiots. The only loss of sovereignty that bothered Brexit backers was the impaired capacity to reduce standards and costs, inability to remove regulatory restrictions and protections to allow greater exploitation of people and resources, plus the ability to extend beyond monopoly limits and evade taxation.

The predictable use of flowery generalisations when the agenda is quite specific certainly doesn't have the interests of voters in mind. They need them to vote against their own interests and protections, so out comes the nationalist/patriotic humbug.
 
Unite to Remain attempted to do just that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_to_Remain) in 60 constituencies across England and Wales. It was just LD, Plaid and Green though because Labour declined to be part of it.



But not only 2 parties can win individual constituencies. There are many where the best chance of defeating the Tories is not Labour. Your criticism of the SNP, for example, seems wildly misplaced if you consider their wins from the Tories in 2019.

Also, coalition governments are a thing.


You can't expect pro-Remain or anti-Tory voters to be able to tap into some kind of hive mentality and operate as one. It requires organisation from the Parties themselves - see earlier point about Unite to Remain.



I checked the figures. In the 48 seats Labour lost to the Tories in England and Wales, if every LD, Green and PC voter had instead voted Labour, to compensate for all the Labour voters switching to the Tories, 23 seats would still have gone blue and the Tories would still have a 30 seat majority.

Thanks for the carefully laid out facts but a sensible post like that will be just ignored it doesn't fit the gormless narrative displayed on this thread. It is just too factual. To discuss it one would have to think and do some research.
 
Silly game, Colin.

Its all a silly game ET. Particularly the one the ardent Brexiteers are playing, but they won't pay the cost of the game. That's left to the poor, gullible, hard-of-thinking who were convinced that their woes were caused by the EU and not Tory doctrine-driven austerity. A very sad game.
 
Ah, yes, the original lie.

'There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.'

Ted Heath, 1973.
We all, in some way, make choices between independence and wider interests. Sovereignty is a conceit which is of diminishing relevance in an increasingly globalised world. Sacrifice implies a loss which we would prefer not to suffer.

All this therefore ignores the customary horse-trading of power and influence that has gone on between nations, states and blocs, since these were a thing. If we’re looking for famous quotes ‘no man is an island’ which acknowledges that nobody has complete autonomy. Countries are no different. I do think it is incumbent on those who set such store by these things, to explain what we have lost, and why it was not worth the trade for what we gained in return.
 
Good luck with that request Steve.

We all, in some way, make choices between independence and wider interests. Sovereignty is a conceit which is of diminishing relevance in an increasingly globalised world. Sacrifice implies a loss which we would prefer not to suffer.

All this therefore ignores the customary horse-trading of power and influence that has gone on between nations, states and blocs, since these were a thing. If we’re looking for famous quotes ‘no man is an island’ which acknowledges that nobody has complete autonomy. Countries are no different. I do think it is incumbent on those who set such store by these things, to explain what we have lost, and why it was not worth the trade for what we gained in return.
 
Looks like the idea a couple of people had to try to be more amenable doesn’t work for some. Such is life.


Ere', like you, I can make stuff up and post it as fact.

Watch this....

You've done more to help the tories than I have, that means you've done more to help brexit than I have. Scottish independence is what you want and you think you'll get it from Brexit.

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure it's made up.

This bit definitely is not made up.
You make a lot of noise, Hugh. I believe you've said before you're an ex-Labour voter, that means you've tried to reduce the number of votes/seats for Labour, probably earlier but certainly from 2015 when the tories had a referendum on EU membership in their manifesto.

Oor Hughie: " You can't blame me....sob sob™ "
 
We all, in some way, make choices between independence and wider interests. Sovereignty is a conceit which is of diminishing relevance in an increasingly globalised world. Sacrifice implies a loss which we would prefer not to suffer.

All this therefore ignores the customary horse-trading of power and influence that has gone on between nations, states and blocs, since these were a thing. If we’re looking for famous quotes ‘no man is an island’ which acknowledges that nobody has complete autonomy. Countries are no different. I do think it is incumbent on those who set such store by these things, to explain what we have lost, and why it was not worth the trade for what we gained in return.
Why must there be a federal USE for countries to trade? The virus has achieved joint responsibility for debt within Europe. The next is the EU raising its own money and that is not far away; it will start with global warming or big company tax evasion taxes. Who will eventually have control?
 
Looks like the idea a couple of people had to try to be more amenable doesn’t work for some. Such is life.



Ere', like you, I can make stuff up and post it as fact.

Watch this....

You've done more to help the tories than I have, that means you've done more to help brexit than I have. Scottish independence is what you want and you think you'll get it from Brexit.

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure it's made up.

This bit definitely is not made up.
You make a lot of noise, Hugh. I believe you've said before you're an ex-Labour voter, that means you've tried to reduce the number of votes/seats for Labour, probably earlier but certainly from 2015 when the tories had a referendum on EU membership in their manifesto.

Oor Hughie: " You can't blame me....sob sob™ "
Why are you consistently unpleasant on this thread? Your ad hominem slurs and doxxing add nothing to the debate, which I believe is supposed to be finding a positive effect of Brexit.
 
Ah, yes, the original lie.

'There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.'

Ted Heath, 1973.
Clearly a monumental lie but some lies are to be ignored.

Why are you consistently unpleasant on this thread? Your ad hominem slurs and doxxing add nothing to the debate, which I believe is supposed to be finding a positive effect of Brexit.
Do you think I find slurs posted toward me pleasant? You may think it’s all funny but it really isn’t.

Doxxing? I just googled it I can’t see where I’m doing that.

ad-hom slurs? Just responding ‘like for like’. If it’s not considered ad-hom coming my way it’s not ad-hom going back.

Edit: By the way, I really do apologise for the tone, I would like nothing more than for the sniping and snide comments to stop. Two of us agreed last week to make an effort to get on a bit better and it's worked so far, it would be good if others would too.

Cheers
 
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Perhaps you are just a little oversensitive then. I always prefer forums where the issue is discussed. I think 1,977 posts is enough. Enjoy.
 
Why are you consistently unpleasant on this thread? Your ad hominem slurs and doxxing add nothing to the debate, which I believe is supposed to be finding a positive effect of Brexit.
I honestly find much of it incomprehensible, referencing fictional posts then arguing with them. In the post above, if I’m getting this right, it appears openly fictionalised content was admitted to then debated with. There seems to be a blurred boundary between what’s real and what’s unreal.
 
Why must there be a federal USE for countries to trade? The virus has achieved joint responsibility for debt within Europe. The next is the EU raising its own money and that is not far away; it will start with global warming or big company tax evasion taxes. Who will eventually have control?
What you have to realise is that the EU is evolving as a union and will ultimately become a federal power- something I see as a very good thing. It has driven up standards, championed human rights, consumer and workers rights. Instead Britain (or what’s going to be left of it) is falling back on illusions of colonial power and isolating itself in an increasingly integrated world. Sucking up to Donald Trump? Even Americans express surprise. All that’s left is the fantasy that the EU will crumble first, that they’ll be damaged as much as Britain is from its most recent misadventure and some how Britain will get its Empire back. Quite frankly you’re welcome to it- just don’t expect anyone else to join you it.
 
Its all a silly game ET. Particularly the one the ardent Brexiteers are playing, but they won't pay the cost of the game. That's left to the poor, gullible, hard-of-thinking who were convinced that their woes were caused by the EU and not Tory doctrine-driven austerity. A very sad game.

I don't know whether you refer to it as a 'meme' or a cliché, but the currently fashionable leftlibremain one by which Cameron/Osborne austerity is in some kind of divine isolation responsible for brexit is of course utter cobblers. The British public have a had a major, and increasing, issue with the European project since Cameron and Osborne were still hanging on their respective mothers' teats.

As a complete aside, don't let it be forgotten that the EU were the standard bearers of austerity. The EU institutions used it to preserve their precious project (a doctrinal one, incidentally) when it was under threat, rendering millions out of work and driving people to poverty in both youth and old-age, and sometimes to suicide, in the process.

We all, in some way, make choices between independence and wider interests. Sovereignty is a conceit which is of diminishing relevance in an increasingly globalised world. Sacrifice implies a loss which we would prefer not to suffer.

All this therefore ignores the customary horse-trading of power and influence that has gone on between nations, states and blocs, since these were a thing. If we’re looking for famous quotes ‘no man is an island’ which acknowledges that nobody has complete autonomy. Countries are no different. I do think it is incumbent on those who set such store by these things, to explain what we have lost, and why it was not worth the trade for what we gained in return.

I take your point - or points - though they seem to comprise a sort of cobbled together mish-mash of quotes and vague ideals. To begin with, sovereignty is very much more than a 'conceit', a word that seems almost designed to belittle the monumental efforts of countless people, some of them justifiably famous, many more unknown, who strove both to protect the people of these countries (and in the process, most of the European ones) from brutal dictatorship, and who fought for universal suffrage in the first half of the 20th century. This is important, for sovereignty belongs to the people, and it is they who gift it to our representatives in Parliament, who are elected at the ballot box in regular plebiscites. Political authority therefore belongs to those who govern only through the consent of the people. This fundamental principle has been at the core of the development of great societies since the ancient Greeks, and undoubtedly beyond, and was confirmed again and again by almost anyone of note in the political arena in the last three centuries, from Lincoln and Jefferson through to Churchill. You will find plenty of famous quotes to that end, including indeed your own, which implies not that sovereignty lies with one man, but with the collective. The converse, or inverse, of this, is dictatorship, even if it is merely a relatively benign dictatorship by ideologically-driven bureaucrats and technocrats.

Societies evolve around a set of customs, habits, rules and a sense of shared history and folklore. Countries are societies to which people have a sense of belonging, of responsibility, of control, and of a sense of safety. Such societies evolve, and the collective increases in size and even geographical scope, but only at a human pace, measured at least in generations. This evolution cannot be forced, because to attempt to do so will bring a sense of alienation, and of loss of control, and there will always be a reaction.

I would argue strongly with your statement that sovereignty is of diminishing importance in the globalised world. The events of the last 6 months or so particularly, and indeed the spasm of which brexit is, I think, just one manifestion, have shown very clearly that sovereignty is alive, well, and extremely fashionable. And in a globalised world essentially run by enormous, faceless corporations which write their own rules and the individual counts for nothing beyond commodification, people need more than ever to have something over which they retain some sense of belonging and control.

Horse-trading between countries has indeed always happened. A cumbersome and virtually autonomous technocratic proto-dictatorship of Europe is not necessary for that horse-trading to continue as it always has done. Indeed, the the horse-trading between individual states continues despite the EU, and perhaps because of it too. Have you not watched it happening in the past half year?

Your post seems to insinuate that Heath didn't lie, because he used the word 'sacrifice', and we sacrificed nothing.

I disagree.
 
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