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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition)

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“Hobby Horse”? This from someone who complained about “milk and honey”?

What is your point? What do you think my post was a deflection from, if not the supposed virtues of the EU?

The fact is that we have left the EU. We left the EU some years ago and we cannot now go back to where we were. If you are interested in the common good going forward, as you indicated you are, then trivialising the daily lie we are told about where money comes from as a ‘hobby horse’ is a far bigger problem facing us in the here and now than endless arguments about the injustice of 2016.

The injustice we have been subjected to for 40 years and continue to be subjected to today far outweigh the consequences of the injustice of leaving the EU. Even if we had stayed in the EU, those injustices would still be there, but less impactful than under Johnson. As I have said, we are talking about difference of degree, not substance and as such, is absolutely not a deflection from the cause of fighting for the substantial cause of the common good.

Moving away from the membership of the EU has made much more of what you complain about inevitable. Your reaction to that is hopelessly complacent. Any plan you have for the UK to re-balance in isolation to a place beyond where we already were before 2016 would make for an interesting read.
 
Moving away from the membership of the EU has made much more of what you complain about inevitable. Your reaction to that is hopelessly complacent. Any plan you have for the UK to re-balance in isolation to a place beyond where we already were before 2016 would make for an interesting read.

Current trajectory shows a BrUK likely to become an unfairer society. But "independence" has been restored and national pride saved... For the few, not the many.
 
Moving away from the membership of the EU has made much more of what you complain about inevitable. Your reaction to that is hopelessly complacent. Any plan you have for the UK to re-balance in isolation to a place beyond where we already were before 2016 would make for an interesting read.
“Hobby Horse” and now we get “complacency”, a bit hypocritical to complain about perceived slights against you when you thrown them around with such ease yourself. My reaction is not complacent in the slightest, it is not accepting of the situation facing us be it as part of the EU or not.

Any “plan” would face the same opposition in or out of the EU, and that opposition would first and foremost come from people who prefer to believe the idea that government spending comes from revenue than challenge it.

The consequences of not challenging that idea are underfunded public services and further privatisation which are antithetical to any notion of the common good.

You can continue to trivialise my logic as a “hobby horse”, but it is not complacency and cannot trivialise it and talk as if you are in favour of any notion of the common good.
 
Current trajectory shows a BrUK likely to become an unfairer society. But "independence" has been restored and national pride saved... For the few, not the many.
Who’d ever have imagined that Britain would have the big idea of extraordinary rendition flights for bulk passengers and their chosen detention site would be a country foremost in the public imagination for one of the greatest genocides in living memory?
Britannia unchained, indeed.
 
“Hobby Horse” and now we get “complacency”, a bit hypocritical to complain about perceived slights against you when you thrown them around with such ease yourself. My reaction is not complacent in the slightest, it is not accepting of the situation facing us be it as part of the EU or not.

Any “plan” would face the same opposition in or out of the EU, and that opposition would first and foremost come from people who prefer to believe the idea that government spending comes from revenue than challenge it.

The consequences of not challenging that idea are underfunded public services and further privatisation which are antithetical to any notion of the common good.

You can continue to trivialise my logic as a “hobby horse”, but it is not complacency and cannot trivialise it and talk as if you are in favour of any notion of the common good.

This exchange began with your "milk and honey" nonsense, which nobody, least of all myself had suggested. Challenging underfunded publc services, further privatisation and restoring our relationship with the EU are not incompatible. You attitude to the latter is complacent, it is worsening our situation at an alarming rate and will unlitmately have a greater effect on our abilities to challenge the other aspects.
 
Who’d ever have imagined that Britain would have the big idea of extraordinary rendition flights for bulk passengers and their chosen detention site would be a country foremost in the public imagination for one of the greatest genocides in living memory?
Britannia unchained, indeed.

The incarnation of BrExit is an unsurprisingly sad and pathetic affair... The irony of it is that the Value-for-money Party has driven home a change in course which is costing the taxpayer millions and brings about absolutely no benefit to him or her.
 
Current trajectory shows a BrUK likely to become an unfairer society. But "independence" has been restored and national pride saved... For the few, not the many.
But we had an unfair society before we left the EU, and that unfairness rose dramatically 40 years ago. To pin the increase in social and economic injustice we face now on an event in 2016 rather than a continuum of half a century is unlikely to tell the whole story.

Don’t get me wrong, Brexit was absolutely about removing checks so as to manipulate and maximise social and economic injustice in the interest of the few, but the root causes were there a long time before.
 
But we had an unfair society before we left the EU, and that unfairness rose dramatically 40 years ago. To pin the increase in social and economic injustice we face now on an event in 2016 rather than a continuum of half a century is unlikely to tell the whole story.

Don’t get me wrong, Brexit was absolutely about removing checks so as to manipulate and maximise social and economic injustice in the interest of the few, but the root causes were there a long time before.

Correct if I'm wrong but aren't the policies/ideology which brought about the unfairness 40 years ago the exact ones that are now being put forth by the BrExit "gerrit dun" Government?
 
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This exchange began with your "milk and honey" nonsense, which nobody, least of all myself had suggested. Challenging underfunded publc services, further privatisation and restoring our relationship with the EU are not incompatible. You attitude to the latter is complacent, it is worsening our situation at an alarming rate and will unlitmately have a greater effect on our abilities to challenge the other aspects.
No, it started with your notion of “common good”.

If you are now arguing for restoring our relationship with the EU, that is a different argument, and frankly one that is for the birds. We will not be restoring our relationship with the EU. It won’t happen. We’ve left. We can’t turn the clock back.
 
This exchange began with your "milk and honey" nonsense, which nobody, least of all myself had suggested. Challenging underfunded publc services, further privatisation and restoring our relationship with the EU are not incompatible. You attitude to the latter is complacent, it is worsening our situation at an alarming rate and will unlitmately have a greater effect on our abilities to challenge the other aspects.
The EU warts and all just looks a hell of a lot more appealing than what the U.K. is offering these days. Europe’s economic clout, the values it promotes, freedom of moment and its cultural richness. Britain feels like it’s gone backwards, to the 50s but minus the mutton and yellow butter shipments from NZ.
 
Correct if I'm wrong but aren't the policies/ideology which brought about the unfairness 40 years ago the exact ones that are now being put forth by the BrExit "gerrit dun" Government?
Yes, but that has been my point all along. It was an ideology adopted by the UK, the US and the EU.
 
The EU warts and all, just looks a hell of a lot more appealing than what the U.K. is offering these days. Europe’s economic clout, the values it promotes, freedom of moment and its cultural richness. Britain feels like it’s gone backwards, to the 50s but minus the mutton and yellow butter shipments from NZ.
I don’t disagree with any of that.
 
The EU warts and all just looks a hell of a lot more appealing than what the U.K. is offering these days. Europe’s economic clout, the values it promotes, freedom of moment and its cultural richness. Britain feels like it’s gone backwards, to the 50s but minus the mutton and yellow butter shipments from NZ.

Yes indeed, which was my point.
 
If you are now arguing for restoring our relationship with the EU, that is a different argument, and frankly one that is for the birds. We will not be restoring our relationship with the EU. It won’t happen. We’ve left. We can’t turn the clock back.

It is a challenge and would not be restoring what we had, that's gone. But it is quite possible to resurrect some relationship or even membership. It would be far more likely than overturning the system here, that really is for the birds.
 
Yes, but that has been my point all along. It was an ideology adopted by the UK, the US and the EU.

But is it an ideology adopted by the EU? I would say that the UK is moving away from the EU and closer to the US in that respect. But I am only another one of those bloody EU foreigners living in England.
 
It is a challenge and would not be restoring what we had, that's gone. But it is quite possible to resurrect some relationship or even membership. It would be far more likely than overturning the system here, that really is for the birds.
If we’re talking about likelihoods, then that is an entirely different argument. Then question then would be, which is the most unlikely? Changing the minds of the many people who feel more comfortable accepting the notion that government spending comes from revenue than challenging it, or changing the minds of a untied EU legislative body that is entirely justified in being totally pissed off with England and the English.
 
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