Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition)

[eternumviti]

There is nothing on that scale that would not contain awkward realities, NATO the UN, anything.

You deflect, then (below), accuse me of deflecting.

You don't just disagree, you persist with the notion that anyone who thinks the UK was to a large extent better off inside the EU than isolated from it must believe the EU is without faults or issues. They don't.

You are not a stupid person so I don't really understand why you persist with that line other than to deflect from the very real harm this exercise is causing.

On the evidemce that we have so far, the UK was better off in the EU.

The oft-repeated, if somewhat grudging, acknowledgement that the EU is 'not without its faults' is merely an empty platitude that always precedes some degree of accolade of just how wonderful the EU is in comparison with 'little Britain', and completely dodges any form of acknowledgment of just how nasty, spiteful and vindictive the EU actually is.

 

[ff1d1l]

There was no ad hom from me, I merely pointed out that your anger is very frequently (see above) directed at the man rather than...the argument.

If I attributed words to you that you didn't say, I apologise. I know exactly how incredibly irritating it is.



Brexit has many midwives, amongst them Macmillan, Heath, Major, Blair, Cameron and yes, Johnson, the majority (some would say all) of them of course tories, and all of them either narrowly or broadly 'establishment'.

Almost forgot - Farage. Certainly 'broadly tory', but interestingly, not establishment.



You don't gaf about sovereignty, you are furiously pro-EU, you haven't an iota of respect for the result of the largest democratic vote ever to have taken place in the UK, but you have a 'respect for democracy'. It doesn't add up, any of it.

I'm all for the debate about reforming the electoral system, and for a properly informed decision to be (democratically) taken at the end of it.



I am indeed. I'm not quite clear about what any of it has to do with brexit though, and similar or in some cases much worse has been in evidence on the other side of the channel.



There's a valid debate to be had about whether or not to HRA is entirely fit for purpose, and whether it has or has not been hijacked by the burgeoning HR legal industry. I'm not sure where I stand on it at the moment.



I've set out many, many 'disappointments', as you put it, in the conduct and processes of the EU, and I have not claimed any legislative triumphs since brexit. If and as I do, I'll happily set them out.

Again you selectively misquote...legislative disappointments I said, and within the same sentence I made clear I meant personally. And you have nothing, nor will you.

I don't gaf about what the gammon have appropriated as sovereignty. I do however care about democracy - where we differ is I have standards. I don't accept the brexit vote was democratic, as it wasn't either a supermajority or a straight majority of the electorate ( not the electorate who voted) in favour, and a change as profound as this should require one or the other. And it was of course only advisory. Regarding the last elections so called endorsement of brexit, the numbers dont support this, and I'm afraid I'm increasingly sceptical that FPTP represents a democratic decision in any way.

No, the johnson was the midwife. Cameron might have taken a pin to the johnies, but that's about it.

Anyway, you might have endless time for the word salad market garden, but I'm pretty busy, so, I'm back to those pithy one liners you so love after this...debate with ET? If there was but world enough and time...

 

[eternumviti]

Now you're putting words in my mouth....

No, I didn't. They're my words.

If you believe that the EU is a bad thing, then there are tangible benefits to leaving it. 'If' is the important word, because it implies a question.

 

[Joe Hutch]

The oft-repeated, if somewhat grudging, acknowledgement that the EU is 'not without its faults' is merely an empty platitude that always precedes some degree of accolade of just how wonderful the EU is in comparison with 'little Britain', and completely dodges any form of acknowledgment of just how nasty, spiteful and vindictive the EU actually is.

And yet you go the opposite extreme; magnifying the failings of the EU, making ludicrous statements about it being an 'evil empire' and crazy comparisons between it and the USSR.

Still, at least you don't go down the 'ein reich, ein volk' road, like another Brexiteer on here.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

There's a valid debate to be had about whether or not to HRA is entirely fit for purpose, and whether it has or has not been hijacked by the burgeoning HR legal industry. I'm not sure where I stand on it at the moment.

The arguments about whether the HRA is fit for purpose or has been hijacked strike me as very similar to the arguments about EU laws which interfered with the UK's sovereignty. When pressed, nobody is able to come up with anything beyond straight bananas, or pounds and ounces. I strongly suspect the same is true of so-called hijacking of the HRA.

 

[eternumviti]

Again you selectively misquote...legislative disappointments I said, and within the same sentence I made clear I meant personally. And you have nothing, nor will you.

You're playing that little, playground bullying game of yours. I have set out many disappointments with the EU's conduct and processes. As the EU is largely a legislative body, those processes are by definition legislative.

I am under no obligation to play your game, nor to respond to your silly little trick questions. Pack it up, please.

I don't gaf about what the gammon have appropriated as sovereignty. I do however care about democracy - where we differ is I have standards. I don't accept the brexit vote was democratic, as it wasn't either a supermajority or a straight majority of the electorate ( not the electorate who voted) in favour, and a change as profound as this should require one or the other. And it was of course only advisory. regarding the last elections so called endorsement of brexit, the numbers dont support this, and I'm afraid I'm increasingly sceptical that FPTP represents a democratic decision in any way.

Ah, so democracy is democracy only if it suits your definition of democracy, the kind where you win.

I've already tipped my cap to your take on FPTP.

No, the johnson was the midwife. Cameron might have taken a pin to the johnies, but that's about it.

The roots of brexit were sewn before Johnson was even born, and over a decade before the country even joined the Common Market. It all has to do with lies and obuscation, and that started with Macmillan, and the explicit recognition by the founding fathers of the EEC that the only way to advance the project to their destination of a supranational USE would be by stealth.

Anyway, you might have endless time for the word salad market garden, but I'm pretty busy, so, I'm back to those pithy one liners you so love after this...debate with ET? If there was but world enough and time...

Indeed. Me too.

 

[eternumviti]

The arguments about whether the HRA is fit for purpose or has been hijacked strike me as very similar to the arguments about EU laws which interfered with the UK's sovereignty. When pressed, nobody is able to come up with anything beyond straight bananas, or pounds and ounces. I strongly suspect the same is true of so-called hijacking of the HRA.

On the HRA you may be right. As I said, I don't have a position on it yet.

All EU laws, by definition, interfere with the UK's sovereignty

 

[eternumviti]

Or rather, did.

 

[Nick_G]

CHAOS:

UK’s threat to Northern Ireland protocol is boost to Putin, says EU | Brexit | The Guardian

You can always count on Liz Truss to lower the bar even further.

 

[Seeker_UK]

All EU laws, by definition, interfere with the UK's sovereignty

All laws coming from policies where we had the means to opt out: Like the Schengen Area, Economic and Monetary Union (EMU), Security and Defence Policy (CSDP), Area of freedom, security and justice (AFSJ), Charter of Fundamental Rights, the Social Chapter.

 

[eternumviti]

Yes, indeed, albeit not entirely.

 

[eternumviti]

CHAOS:

UK’s threat to Northern Ireland protocol is boost to Putin, says EU | Brexit | The Guardian

You can always count on Liz Truss to lower the bar even further.

That sounds to me like the EU lowering the bar.

 

[ff1d1l]

That sounds to me like the EU lowering the bar.

Wtf? Totally absurd convolutions there ET.

 

[eternumviti]

What, the EU invoking Putin over the NIP?

Come now.

 

[SteveS1]

On the evidemce that we have so far, the UK was better off in the EU.

We are agreed.

The oft-repeated, if somewhat grudging, acknowledgement that the EU is 'not without its faults' is merely an empty platitude that always precedes some degree of accolade of just how wonderful the EU is in comparison with 'little Britain', and completely dodges any form of acknowledgment of just how nasty, spiteful and vindictive the EU actually is.

On the subject of grudging acknowledgements. Had you just left it at comparison with Johnson's UK being a low bar, we might be closer to agreeing on that too.

 

[eternumviti]

Did I just see another deflection?

 

[SteveS1]

Did I just see another deflection?

To what? Is that your stock phrase when you don't like the answer.

 

[eternumviti]

To what? Is that your stock phrase when you don't like the answer.

That's so funny. I've used it twice. You?

 

[SteveS1]

That's so funny. I've used it twice. You?

Seeing things you want to see might explain a lot.

 

[Barrymagrec]

The oft-repeated, if somewhat grudging, acknowledgement that the EU is 'not without its faults' is merely an empty platitude that always precedes some degree of accolade of just how wonderful the EU is in comparison with 'little Britain', and completely dodges any form of acknowledgment of just how nasty, spiteful and vindictive the EU actually is.

Well, we were members for nearly fifty years, you can`t expect some UK government practices not to rub off on them.