Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition) II

[tuga]

I've often felt (and voiced) the same thing. I could never bear Patten, though, a dyed-in-the-wool EU lackey to the core.

Centrist always sounds a bit Blairite, I suspect Blair and Patten are made of the same political substance.

I agree. We need real men, like that guy Farage and his German passport!

 

[TheDecameron]

I've often felt (and voiced) the same thing. I could never bear Patten, though, a dyed-in-the-wool EU lackey to the core.

Centrist always sounds a bit Blairite, I suspect Blair and Patten are made of the same political substance.

Yes, Patten certainly lacks the wisdom, sense of public service and honesty exemplified by your preferred EU opinion formers in the party.

just how low are you prepared to go?

 

[Kirk]

Speaking of upstanding citizens, Sir John Redwood was on C4 News last night. Here's the clip:

https://www.channel4.com/news/debate-how-to-stimulate-uk-economic-growth

And a background article:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-cost-of-living-crisis-worse-new-study-claims

 

[Kirk]

Well, you've got me bang to rights there!

Or, as Churchill didn't say. 'diplomacy is the art of telling people to go to hell in such a way that they ask for directions'.

I, and others of my lowly ilk, would contest that the EU bent over backwards to frustrate the UK's attempts to leave the organisation, or to hold it firmly within its regulatory and governance orbit in what is an increasingly typical act of EU neocolonialism -they are keen to do the same with Switzerland, and were falling over themselves to do it to Ukraine prior to 2014. To that end it set the agenda (sequencing) then skilfully exploited the splits within the UK government, its own cosy relationship with Whitehall, and of course the greatest gift of all, the Irish border issue. The greatest gift, that is, if you take out the appalling ineptitude of the May government negotiating gambit. They were delighted with the dithering, the time-wasting, two years and then the three years, because all the while the UK government was tearing itself to shreds. Tick-tock, tick-tock, mocked M.Barnier all the while. It was classic divide and conquer, slow and systematic attrition. Credit to them, we were complete amateurs, when we weren't actual fifth columnists.

'We got rid of them. We kicked them out. We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment'.

You mean held victim-Britain accountable. Having your cake and eat it was never going to work. You can blame Boris for that. And the EU can't be blamed for democracy taking its course in Parliament nor for the Tory soap opera that accompanied it.

There's a piece by Saint Marina in the Guardian today. It's about blame.

 

[Kirk]

Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'

I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

There's also a lot of...the EU is weak and strong in the Brexit narrative. It's a well-worn propaganda technique.

 

[eternumviti]

You mean held victim-Britain accountable. Having your cake and eat it was never going to work. You can blame Boris for that. And the EU can't be blamed for democracy taking its course in Parliament nor for the Tory soap opera that accompanied it.

There's a piece by Saint Marina in the Guardian today. It's about blame.

Whilst we might argue the finer points of democracy and Parliament throughout the Brexit process (we might, but I haven't the time or energy), it would be helpful if you could point out to me where I 'blamed' the EU in that post, or indeed set out the UK as a victim, apart, that is, from one of the ineptitude of its own government.

 

[eternumviti]

Yes, Patten certainly lacks the wisdom, sense of public service and honesty exemplified by your preferred EU opinion formers in the party.

just how low are you prepared to go?

I think you're making assumptions about who forms my opinion, but then what's new.

In response to the question, not as low as Patten or Blair.

 

[TheDecameron]

Speaking of upstanding citizens, Sir John Redwood was on C4 News last night. Here's the clip:

https://www.channel4.com/news/debate-how-to-stimulate-uk-economic-growth

And a background article:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-cost-of-living-crisis-worse-new-study-claims

Redwood punting the calamitous Francoist model that economically turned Spain back for almost half a century- grow all our own food, make all our own products, import nothing and stand proud and alone. Not so much North Sea Singapore, more Pyongyang on Thames.

 

[TheDecameron]

Whilst we might argue the finer points of democracy and Parliament throughout the Brexit process (we might, but I haven't the time or energy), it would be helpful if you could point out to me where I 'blamed' the EU in that post, or indeed set out the UK as a victim, apart, that is, from one of the ineptitude of its own government.

Slippery as an eel you are. There’s a delicious inventory of six years of posts on those very themes.

 

[eternumviti]

Slippery as an eel you are. There’s a delicious inventory of six years of posts on those very themes.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I blame the EU - and John Major (and to a significant degree variously Macmillan, Heath, Blair Brown and Cameron) - for Brexit, but you cannot blame the EU for having been far, far better in the Brexit negotiating process than the UK was.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I blame the EU - and John Major (and to a significant degree varipusly Macmillan, Heath, Blair Brown and Cameron) - for Brexit, but you cannot blame the EU for having been far, far better in the Brexit negotiating process than the UK was.

Why does Thatcher escape blame?

 

[Barrymagrec]

I blame Churchill for keeping us out in the first place.......

 

[eternumviti]

Why does Thatcher escape blame?

Saint Margaret Hilda?

My goodness!

She was something of a driving force behind the SM, and expansion, both of which are considered positives. The degree to which the Commission was helping itself to power only really dawned on her rather late in the day. Her wretched successor was responsible for Britain going into the EU, though. EU membership changed everything.

 

[PsB]

I, and others of my lowly ilk, would contest that the EU bent over backwards to frustrate the UK's attempts to leave the organisation, or to hold it firmly within its regulatory and governance orbit in what is an increasingly typical act of EU neocolonialism -they are keen to do the same with Switzerland, and were falling over themselves to do it to Ukraine prior to 2014. To that end it set the agenda (sequencing) then skilfully exploited the splits within the UK government, its own cosy relationship with Whitehall, and of course the greatest gift of all, the Irish border issue. The greatest gift, that is, if you take out the appalling ineptitude of the May government negotiating gambit. They were delighted with the dithering, the time-wasting, two years and then the three years, because all the while the UK government was tearing itself to shreds. Tick-tock, tick-tock, mocked M.Barnier all the while. It was classic divide and conquer, slow and systematic attrition. Credit to them, we were complete amateurs, when we weren't actual fifth columnists.

Well, the FO used to have a superb set of diplomats and negotiators, but the Brexiters kicked them out (or demotivated them, so they left). Competence and experts have been criminally underrated in British government for the last 10 years at least. If I ever had to choose between the eggheads of the Commission and David Frost or David Davis to defend my commercial interests, I know which lot I'd pick.

It was a major concession from the EU to offer May what was in effect continued membership of the EU's Customs Union even though the UK had left the EU and didn't want to be part of the EEA. It was a major concession to continue to include Northern Ireland. These were all creative responses to contradictory parameters set at various times by the British side post Brexit. If you seriously believe this is what "neo-colonialism" looks like, I fear you're in for a shock when future trade agreements with the US or China come up for "discussion".

'We got rid of them. We kicked them out. We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment'.

Who said that?

 

[eternumviti]

Well, the FO used to have a superb set of diplomats and negotiators, but the Brexiters kicked them out (or demotivated them, so they left). Competence and experts have been criminally underrated in British government for the last 10 years at least. If I ever had to choose between the eggheads of the Commission and David Frost or David Davis to defend my commercial interests, I know which lot I'd pick.

It was a major concession from the EU to offer May what was in effect continued membership of the EU's Customs Union even though the UK had left the EU and didn't want to be part of the EEA. It was a major concession to continue to include Northern Ireland. These were all creative responses to contradictory parameters set at various times by the British side post Brexit. If you seriously believe this is what "neo-colonialism" looks like, I fear you're in for a shock when future trade agreements with the US or China come up for "discussion".

Who said that?

I wouldn't say that offering membership of the CU was a 'concession' at all. It would have placed the UK directly under the EU/ECJ cosh, without a say in proceedings. That might not have ended up well, but it was certainly what the Commission would have liked.

I certainly agree with your comment on the UK's diplomats. The EU had considerable respect for them. Unfortunately they, or at least the ones that were chosen by May, were not impartial, having been steeped in the EU's juices for most of their careers.

I'm fully aware of the risks implied in any discussion withe the US or China. I certainly won't forget the sly, secretive vigour with which the European Commission pursued the truly awful TTIP in the interests, undoubtedly, of its various corporate masters, and against the increasingly shrill instructions of its member states. I recall that they even managed to pull off that investment deal with China before human rights issues became a bit too embarrasing and they had to engage in some swift backpeddling.

Who said that?

Some EU functionary in Guy Verhofstadt's Brexit Steering Group office in that excruciating fly-on-the-wall documentary 'Brexit; Behind Closed Doors'.

 

[TheDecameron]

The documentary was exquisite. The Irish EU official describing just how idiotic the Tory backbencher Dunning-Kruger delegation who’d come to dictate terms to the EU, actually were.

A period when the Tories thought they could bypass the EU and appeal to individual heads of state and most egregious of all, the attempt by a far right Tory MP to consort with a foreign power behind the backs of the British Parliament to gain an individual state veto to anything proposed by his own Parliament that diverged from hardline Brexit -while the Tories were telling us it was all about the sovereignty of Parliament!

All failed miserably and were seen to fail, adding to the ignominy.

 

[laughingboy]

Some EU functionary in Guy Verhofstadt's Brexit Steering Group office in that excruciating fly-on-the-wall documentary 'Brexit; Behind Closed Doors'.

At 58:40 here: 'We got rid of them. We kicked them out.' 'We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment'.

It's presented without any context at all - it's two statements edited together, in fact - and may have been a joke, or an expression of frustration, or anything really. It could have been a genuine statement, but the mock hand waving behind the desk, while laughing, makes me think that it was said in jest rather than malice, even if it contained some degree of truth.

 

[TheDecameron]

At 58:40 here: 'We got rid of them. We kicked them out.' 'We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment'.

It's presented without any context at all - it's two statements edited together, in fact - and may have been a joke, or an expression of frustration, or anything really. It could have been a genuine statement, but the mock hand waving behind the desk, while laughing, makes me think that it was said in jest rather than malice, even if it contained some degree of truth.

Yes, Redwood, Bone, Francois and Mogg don’t do irony, neither do most of the Brexit faithful The Brexit rags want to keep the pot stirred.

 

[PsB]

At 58:40 here: 'We got rid of them. We kicked them out.' 'We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment'.

It's presented without any context at all - it's two statements edited together, in fact - and may have been a joke, or an expression of frustration, or anything really. It could have been a genuine statement, but the mock hand waving behind the desk, while laughing, makes me think that it was said in jest rather than malice, even if it contained some degree of truth.

I hadn't seen that and haven't watched it yet, apart from the first and last minutes. Looks interesting.
The quotes above are obviously a joke, like the bit at the beginning, when somebody in the EU van predicts "they will stay" and Verhofstad's answers "the worst possible outcome".

 

[eternumviti]

At 58:40 here: 'We got rid of them. We kicked them out.' 'We finally turned them into a colony, and that was our plan from the first moment'.

It's presented without any context at all - it's two statements edited together, in fact - and may have been a joke, or an expression of frustration, or anything really. It could have been a genuine statement, but the mock hand waving behind the desk, while laughing, makes me think that it was said in jest rather than malice, even if it contained some degree of truth.

Indeed, something along those lines.