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Blue Note 2019 80th Anniversary Series

Very slightly off thread, I finally got round to buying a copy of Andrew Hill's Points of Departure on vinyl which arrived today. I've had it on CD for years but it's been an oversight in terms of getting a copy on vinyl. I've has it in my Amazon basket for a year or two and was finally prompted to get it by a 30% price drop.

The edition I had in the basket was the BN75 edition, The one that arrived was a more recent issue. The sleeve has a "Blue Note Collection, Pure virgin vinyl, 180g audiophile" sticker on the shrink wrapping and is dated 2018, so comes after the 75 anniversary edition. For a moment I had a horrible feeling it would be a Waxtime or DOL edition and would have to go back. The sleeve says it is distributed on license to Elemental Records in Spain, printed in the EU. The pressing is as silent as any of the Tone Poets I've heard and the sound is pretty much on a par with the BN80s.

Has anyone come across this edition. It was £14 on Amazon and, to my mind, something of a bargain.

Edit - have done a quick search I found this :

http://www.elemental-music.com/jazz-treasures/

They seem to have license to distribute quite a few releases that have been in the TP or BN 80 series - NHSNHS, Open Sesame, Face to Face, A Swinging Affair, The Cooker and others.

Kevin
 
kjb said:
Very slightly off thread, I finally got round to buying a copy of Andrew Hill's Points of Departure on vinyl which arrived today. I've had it on CD for years but it's been an oversight in terms of getting a copy on vinyl. I've has it in my Amazon basket for a year or two and was finally prompted to get it by a 30% price drop.

The edition I had in the basket was the BN75 edition, The one that arrived was a more recent issue. The sleeve has a "Blue Note Collection, Pure virgin vinyl, 180g audiophile" sticker on the shrink wrapping and is dated 2018, so comes after the 75 anniversary edition. For a moment I had a horrible feeling it would be a Waxtime or DOL edition and would have to go back. The sleeve says it is distributed on license to Elemental Records in Spain, printed in the EU. The pressing is as silent as any of the Tone Poets I've heard and the sound is pretty much on a par with the BN80s.

Has anyone come across this edition. It was £14 on Amazon and, to my mind, something of a bargain.

Edit - have done a quick search I found this :

http://www.elemental-music.com/jazz-treasures/

They seem to have license to distribute quite a few releases that have been in the TP or BN 80 series - NHSNHS, Open Sesame, Face to Face, A Swinging Affair, The Cooker and others.

Kevin
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Kevin,
This is the version of Point Of Departure that I have on vinyl. I bought it in 2019 as the Music Matters version was too expensive for me to import and by reputation these were better than the BN75's, but I think that was mainly down to pressing quality if you got a United pressing rather than an Optimal. I have had some pretty good BN75 Optimal pressings. I have two or three other, Elemental's including Larry Young In To Something (2016) that have also been good. I think I paid about £18 each?

I expect it is a digital master, but my copy also sounds pretty good, quite dynamic and it is a flat and quiet pressing as well. A little 'flatter' sound stage than I would expect so a a little off the best of the Music Matters, Tone Poets and BN80's, but hard to fully know without a direct comparison of pressings. My Larry Young copy is good enough to make me pass on the latest BN80 to save a bit on current vinyl expenditure. All those I have sound better than the CD version.

They are a proper licensed version from Universal (Spain) not a copyright rip off needle drop that I always avoid.
 
poco a poco said:
Kevin,
This is the version of Point Of Departure that I have on vinyl. I bought it in 2019 as the Music Matters version was too expensive for me to import and by reputation these were better than the BN75's, but I think that was mainly down to pressing quality if you got a United pressing rather than an Optimal. I have had some pretty good BN75 Optimal pressings. I have two or three other, Elemental's including Larry Young In To Something (2016) that have also been good. I think I paid about £18 each?

I expect it is a digital master, but my copy also sounds pretty good, quite dynamic and it is a flat and quiet pressing as well. A little 'flatter' sound stage than I would expect so a a little off the best of the Music Matters, Tone Poets and BN80's, but hard to fully know without a direct comparison of pressings. My Larry Young copy is good enough to make me pass on the latest BN80 to save a bit on current vinyl expenditure. All those I have sound better than the CD version.

They are a proper licensed version from Universal (Spain) not a copyright rip off needle drop that I always avoid.
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I also found the 75s were a little uneven - whichever came with the download code were noticeably better than the non download code 75s. I assume the downloads coupon came with the European pressing. Fortunately I only ended up with two of the weaker one Hancock's Maiden Voyage and Morgan's New Land, both of which sounded thinner and had a bit more surface noise than the others. Does that align with the United rather than Optimal? I bought many of these online which made it far less predictable what you were going to get. The sticker promising a download coupon on the ones I bought in store made them much easier to distinguish.

That said, the best of the 75s (from the ones I bought - Soul Station, Mode for Joe and Songs for My Father) aren't that far behind the BN80s.

I know what you mean about the slightly flatter soundstage on the Elemental but, for me, the pressing and mastering are more than good enough and better that either of the CDs I've got (one a RVG edition - I really need to replace all of these).

It's curious that one of the rationales for TPs seems to be records that have not been licensed out to MM but quite a few are on Elemental which must, I assume, mean they are digital rather than tape transfers.

Whatever, Point of Departure is a completely fabulous record.
 
Point of Departure is indeed a great album. I think of it as the sister album to Out To Lunch - both albums pushing at the boundaries of jazz composition and still sounding fresh and exciting. The MM versions of both these albums are superb.

As Elemental are officially licensed but based in Europe they will most likely be digitally sourced transfers, Joe Harley et al have stated many times that the analogue masters do not leave the US. I have two Elementals by John Patton - Oh Baby! and Got A Good Thing Going - which are very good, on a par with Optimal pressed 75th, but not quite up to 80th or TP/MM standards. I also have Elemental Grant Green Talkin’ About.. and Bobby Hutcherson Dialogue! Both are earlier in the release schedule and very disappointing - sounding flat and lifeless, especially Dialogue! - which is a shame for such vibrant music. The Patton titles are also quieter than the Hutcherson and Green, which might indicate Elemental changed pressing plant.

Not all the European 75th titles were pressed at Optimal. About half way through the series Optimal reached capacity due to pressing the Beatles mono box set, so for about 3 months (about a dozen titles) the 75ths were pressed at GZ. IME GZ are noisier, poorer pressings than Optimal. Can’t remember which months or titles were GZ but I do know Ornette Coleman’s New York Is Now was one of them (identification tip - Optimal have hand written run out etchings, whereas GZ are stamped and state GZ. European pressings are indicated on the rear cover).

I’m sure there was at least one long running 75th anniversary thread on PFM discussing quality and the temporary change of European pressing plant.
 
kjb said:
I also found the 75s were a little uneven - whichever came with the download code were noticeably better than the non download code 75s. I assume the downloads coupon came with the European pressing. Fortunately I only ended up with two of the weaker one Hancock's Maiden Voyage and Morgan's New Land, both of which sounded thinner and had a bit more surface noise than the others. Does that align with the United rather than Optimal? I bought many of these online which made it far less predictable what you were going to get. The sticker promising a download coupon on the ones I bought in store made them much easier to distinguish.
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Graham H said:
Point of Departure is indeed a great album. I think of it as the sister album to Out To Lunch - both albums pushing at the boundaries of jazz composition and still sounding fresh and exciting. The MM versions of both these albums are superb.

As Elemental are officially licensed but based in Europe they will most likely be digitally sourced transfers, Joe Harley et al have stated many times that the analogue masters do not leave the US.

Not all the European 75th titles were pressed at Optimal. About half way through the series Optimal reached capacity due to pressing the Beatles mono box set, so for about 3 months (about a dozen titles) the 75ths were pressed at GZ. IME GZ are noisier, poorer pressings than Optimal. Can’t remember which months or titles were GZ but I do know Ornette Coleman’s New York Is Now was one of them (identification tip - Optimal have hand written run out etchings, whereas GZ are stamped and state GZ. European pressings are indicated on the rear cover).
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I hadn't thought about the download codes as a way of identifying as I never use them, but I think you are probably right. There are different style hype stickers on the front shrink wrap as well. The best check is in the matrix code identifications in the run out area. The United have a hand etched u in a circle along with the numbering. The Optimal's are hand etched numbering that always seem to start BE or BF followed by initials that vary and I assume are those of different disk master cutters. I don't recognise the initials as individuals I know on any that I have. This tends to make me think that they were cut and plated at Optimal from the transferred high res digital masters. I didn't get any GZ BN75's, but I do have others from GZ and as Graham notes these have stamped matrix numbering.

As he also says they do not allow the true analogue masters out of the country now only digital copies, but a few BN75's were apparently pressed from analogue copy masters. Don Was has said that all the Blue Notes were digitalised at or before the time of the BN75 releases and these would be the 'normal' masters for future licences, but it seems with Tone Poet and BN80 that does not apply in house. Also interesting that Joe Harley seems to have
found earlier mastertapes of the sessions in a few cases.

I think it is very likely that the later Elemental issues were cut from the same digital masters. There will still be differences due a different disc cutter and metal work. The BN75's also vary quite a bit because the digital masters were produced by a number of different mastering engineers including Alan Yoshida, Bernie Grundman and Ron McMaster. So together with the cutting, metal work and pressing plenty of scope for differences in sound quality.

In general of the BN75's I have the Optimal (most) are the best and quietest the few United are much noisier, although they vary. As I said I don't have any GZ ones, but from my experience of GZ's I would probably rate them in between Optimal and United. Closer to United standard. I have not had an unplayable BN75 pressings as many have reported as for various reasons. I have a few double dip BN75's to compare with early Blue Notes (mainly 1970's). The early ones are better sound quality, but the Optimal BN75's are quieter. I have have a couple duplicated on Music Matters 2x45rpm and they are not even close, even one that IMO I thought of as quite good till compared, the Larry Young- Unity. So by implication while judged on their own "pretty good" also below BN80 and Tone Poet quality. Still good enough if the music is important to you and there is not a better version at an affordable price which is always my criteria.

Graham, do you or anyone have any experience of the L.M.L.R. Blue Note limited edition pressings. They are a French company formed in 1991. I assume they are from digital master tapes (they mainly produce CD's)? As French possibly pressed by MPO that I have good and poor pressings by? I interested in a couple including the Don Wilkerson - Preach Brother. I suppose at about £20 I should just take a punt on one?
 
poco a poco said:
Graham, do you or anyone have any experience of the L.M.L.R. Blue Note limited edition pressings. They are a French company formed in 1991. I assume they are from digital master tapes (they mainly produce CD's)? As French possibly pressed by MPO that I have good and poor pressings by?
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No experience with L.M.L.R., but the few MPO pressings I have are nothing special.

To illustrate how sloppy GZ can be, my copy of Ornette’s New York Is Now has the wrong centre labels, which are Curtis Fuller - The Opener. I kept it because I didn’t notice until I’d had it a few weeks, (!), and one day it may become a collector’s item - although I doubt it.

How are people getting on with Smokestack? I think my Connoisseur needs replacing, dithering. It would be nice if the BN80 sounded a bit more dynamic than the Conn - and the two basses were better differentiated. I may be asking for the impossible.
 
Graham H said:
How are people getting on with Smokestack? I think my Connoisseur needs replacing, dithering. It would be nice if the BN80 sounded a bit more dynamic than the Conn - and the two basses were better differentiated. I may be asking for the impossible.
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Trumpet Toccata and Smokestack arrived a few days ago but today was the first day I have had a chance for a first listen to both. Well I'm sad to see this BN80 series end especially as I think they have gotten better and better in sound quality terms as they have gone on . You can clearly hear differences in the approach to the mastering of the Van Gelder recordings between these and the Tone Poets now. It may seem sacrilegious, but I'm beginning to prefer what Kevin Gray does on his own than when accompanied by curatorial input of Joe Harley. I think on his own that this is probably a 'flatter' representation of what is on the master tape while Harley still plays some respect the the presence range push used by Van Gelder for final disc masterings. Gray's ability to get the best out of the Van Gelder recording of drum kits now is extraordinary. Albert Heath on Trumpet Toccata sounds wonderful. Fantastic detail and transient attack, yet still retaining the air round the cymbals and the studio ambiance. I'm a fan of Kenny Dorham, but I never rated this recording very high, but here it sounds great and Joe Henderson is at his very best. When is he anything less?

Sorry Graham, to get to Andrew Hill's - Smokestack. Another amazing outing by him. I was having difficulty answering your questions for a couple of reasons. One Hill's invention and playing is so amazing I kept getting drawn in by his piano playing above all else. Which I suppose means the record is having the desired effect. Second it's 28 degrees in my room today so probably not the idea temperature for my cartridge. I should probably raise the VTA a bit to get the very best out of the basses, but it still sounds very good and I can't be bothered in this heat.

The sound stage on this recording is not quite so wide on this as on many other Van Gelder's, a good thing in my book. Hill's piano is in my room forward of the left speaker and sounds very good for a Van Gelder recorded piano. Proper size with good attack and still some sense of the studio ambiance around it. Roy Haynes is just inside the right speaker and back in the mix. On occasions part of his kit is pan potted behind the basses, or it could be mike bleed? The two bass players are in the centre close together. It's not night and day throughout on all tracks, but I can hear two basses. Perhaps Hill's intention was not to have two distinct bass sounds. I think from the style of playing Richard Davis is the one a very little to the left of centre and Eddie Khan a very little to the right. Davis's bass sounds a little bit fuller and a bit more forward than Khan's. It becomes more apparent on Wailing Wall (truly extraordinary track) where Davis is bowing and Khan is adding some plucked fills.

While the dynamics are not on the same level as Trumpet Toccata they perfectly encompass the range of the Music. The microdynamics and detail are great and the full dynamics are perhaps more apparent on the side two tracks where Roy Haynes is given more prominence.

Far be it from me to make you spend your money as the Connoisseur's are usually pretty good. I've have persuaded myself to spend more as well as I think my copy of Into Something is pretty good, but I now want to hear what Kevin Gray has done to this as well.
 
My copy of 'Into Something' that I in the end I decided to double dip on with the BN80, although I had a very decent sounding Elemental copy, arrived late yesterday so I have been running a comparison this afternoon. Well played on it's own the Elemental is still good, but in nearly every aspect the BN80 is much better. They sound very different from each other and at a nearly identical price point. The Elemental was pressed by MPO and the BN80 by Optimal as usual. Both flat and pretty quiet. The MPO only really sounding slightly noisier in the dead wax.

The soundstage is a bit narrower on the Elemental. The BN80 is wider and also cut at a bit higher level so I needed to adjust for the volume differences, but not so easy as the dynamics and frequency extension is different and varies somewhat with the instruments. The main difference being with Elvin's drums, they are much more 'present' in the mix although not appearing physically forward in the soundstage. They have much more detail and his brush work and cymbal taps really ring out. The upper frequencies on the cymbals are really extended and while this is much better overall with the BN80 it can perhaps be little too much at times at times. With all instruments there is much greater extension into the bass and much greater detail. On Paris Eyes for instance you can easily hear Larry Young vocalising / humming along over his solo, but his bass notes are still more extended and clearer as well.

The BN80 does sound much more like real instruments played in a real (studio) space. On occasions though I think all this detail and extension in the upper frequencies, especially from Elvin's contribution can loose a bit of the cohesiveness and balance in the ensemble passages that the Elemental has. The Elemental is much more laid back and I can see that on some days I might actually prefer that.

Still a win IMO for the BN80 so I'm glad I double dipped here. Trouble is I now back looking for an affordable Music Matters copy of Point Of Departure to compare to my Elemental. :oops:;)
Edited for typos.
 
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Sadly the BN80 series has come to an end with no clear indication how Universal / Blue Note will proceed with a 'budget' series now. Perhaps there is some indication from this release of Art Blakey and the Jazz Messangers of 'Just Cooling' from 1959 that has never seen a previous release. No clear indication as to whether or not it is AAA, but it is mastered by Kevin Gray but I have taken a punt and pre ordered a copy.
http://www.bluenote.com/art-blakey-jazz-messengers-just-coolin/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Coolin-VINYL-Blakey-Messengers/dp/B083XX69MJ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3CYXDL6TYAE93&keywords=art+blakey+and+the+jazz+messengers&qid=1593457147&sprefix=Art+Blakey+,aps,322&sr=8-2
 
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Well copy of Art Blakey - 'Just Coolin' (I mentioned above) arrived a bit over a week ago, but because of other distractions I have only just got around to giving it a spin. Well anyone regretting the end of the BN80 series and while we are still awaiting the next Tone Poets shouldn't hesitate. It sounds superb. Mastered by Kevin Gray, but there is no direct reference to it being AAA, but I'm convinced it is. It sounds just like the the best of the BN80 mastering and pressings. Great detail, width depth and separation to the sound stage and the usual Kevin Gray interpretation of Van Gelders drum sound. Good sound on Bobby Timmons piano is a bonus here as well.

This was recorded on 8th March 1959, but it has taken till now to get a release as it was superseded by the two live 'Art Blakey and the Jazz Messangers at the Jazz Corner of the World' that were in the BN80 series. This studio session sounds much better than those.

I'm pretty certain this has taken the same route as the BN80's. Mastered by Gray in the states and metal work sent to Optimal in Germany for pressing. Optimal isn't mentioned either, but it looks like their hand engraved matrix codes and the inner sleeve is like the better more recent BN80 ones. Mine is a nice flat and quiet pressing as well.
 
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