Better HiFi v Better Sound
- Thread starter Rob Sinden
- Start date
Cereal Killer
432
whats really cool about the TDAI and RP is that fact it has three different focus points, one is RP off and the amp really sound very good as is, then there RP with global room correction and then theres RP with one fixed sweetspot. and it works a treat. i know at first it flys in the face of everything 'audiophile' and the belief of less is more but when you have a play and listen you'll find its actually very simple and user friendly. its no more complicated than a supernait. i see it as a powered DAC with very very pure and simple high powered amp. all the settings are in the digital domain. look at the new Naim DAC, it used the same DSP chipset as ths CA dacmagic. the only difference being with these two its factory set to a voice.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
R-tee, the dacmagic and naim dac share one single chip out of about 50 chips, it's a programmable dsp chip, (FPGA to all intents and purposes), they aren't running the same code on it, in fact they probably aren't even doing the same processes on it. You could use that chip for any calculation you wanted.
Rob, if RP is so good, why do you need a 400k facility to demo it in, wouldn't any old shed do?
Rob, if RP is so good, why do you need a 400k facility to demo it in, wouldn't any old shed do?
Cereal Killer
432
Sq, I know what you mean, perhaps i was to vague but what I meant was its a DSP chip in a dac, similar to how the TDAI works. The only difference with naim's and CA being the DSP is fixed rather than have one fixed and two variable. I haven’t been to Robs place but from what I’ve seen on the web, most of the £400K is spent on the model D and cinema setup. The TDAI setup is £15K which is no small amount of cash either!
Upgrading for the sake of it is, in my view, fundamentally wrong. It presumes things can always be better and suggests that there is a perfect setup for any particular room, a set up that is just around the corner. In my experience it is better to spend money until you get an enjoyable sound and then buy some music.
I agree wholeheartedly that the room in which you are listening is a fundamental part of the experience and that everyone can easily improve their listening experience by using sensible setup of both the equipment and the acoustics of the room.
In setting up my own equipment I used a good quality sound level meter and a test disc and my ears. I confirmed two lessons. One was that a good speaker is vital to the sound and that the so called sweet spot really does exist because the sound field varies dramatically about an average listening room.
My conclusions therefore remain. get a good set up of equipment and then but some music. DSP cannot be used by the average listener to improve their experience for all types of music. All it can do is make gross changes for one listening position that can only make the sound unbalanced in other parts of the room.
Finally a question to the OP. How does DSP deal with bright rooms in the near and far field?
I agree wholeheartedly that the room in which you are listening is a fundamental part of the experience and that everyone can easily improve their listening experience by using sensible setup of both the equipment and the acoustics of the room.
In setting up my own equipment I used a good quality sound level meter and a test disc and my ears. I confirmed two lessons. One was that a good speaker is vital to the sound and that the so called sweet spot really does exist because the sound field varies dramatically about an average listening room.
My conclusions therefore remain. get a good set up of equipment and then but some music. DSP cannot be used by the average listener to improve their experience for all types of music. All it can do is make gross changes for one listening position that can only make the sound unbalanced in other parts of the room.
Finally a question to the OP. How does DSP deal with bright rooms in the near and far field?
Rob Sinden
Registered user
The £400k was spent partially to build the best acoustic space that I could as in my experience the room is the weakest link in high end systems. There are two ways to deal with this, one is with designing and building the best acoustic space - which I have done and the other is with some form of electronic room correction which I have also done.
The dedicated listening room sounds superb and I think people will hear that if they bring their existing kit along - it will sound much better in the space. Most people cant afford this approach and so electronic room correction is another soution that I'm interested in.
What I like to dem to people is how consistant the sound of Lyngdorf's systems are in a near perfect acoustic space and in a completely untreated room. The difference is remarkably small.
The dedicated listening room sounds superb and I think people will hear that if they bring their existing kit along - it will sound much better in the space. Most people cant afford this approach and so electronic room correction is another soution that I'm interested in.
What I like to dem to people is how consistant the sound of Lyngdorf's systems are in a near perfect acoustic space and in a completely untreated room. The difference is remarkably small.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
r-tee, it's still a poor analogy as the Black fin in the CA performs only the upsampling and none linear interpolation functions- the Anagram licensed stuff, the different brick wall 'filters' are only those provided on the DAC chip by the DAC chip manufacturer and nothing to do with the DSP chip per'se.
Cereal Killer
432
Yes but its still not user programmable as it is in the TDAI. My point is people shouldn’t be afraid of using DSP. It’s not going against the hi-end religion. It’s just the next logical step - IMO Digital is the way forward.
Rob Sinden
Registered user
I'm a digital convert but for me it depends how you like your music. A lot of people clearly love the sound of valves, horns etc. all of which can sound superb however I dont think they are neutral.
If you want to hear your music or films as they were intended keeping the signal in the digital domain should add less to the source. After that unless you are sat very close to your speakers the room will clearly be having a huge affect on what you hear.
I think more people should look at room treatment as it can help considerably and often for a very small investment, however even after spending a fortune on a heavily designed room the benefits of RoomPerfect are still easy to hear. In a "normal" acoustic space the effects are even more obvious.
For me the main point is that if you are serious about accurate sound reproduction you simply cannot ignore the effect of the room and presently this area is largely ignored by most hifi dealers.
If you want to hear your music or films as they were intended keeping the signal in the digital domain should add less to the source. After that unless you are sat very close to your speakers the room will clearly be having a huge affect on what you hear.
I think more people should look at room treatment as it can help considerably and often for a very small investment, however even after spending a fortune on a heavily designed room the benefits of RoomPerfect are still easy to hear. In a "normal" acoustic space the effects are even more obvious.
For me the main point is that if you are serious about accurate sound reproduction you simply cannot ignore the effect of the room and presently this area is largely ignored by most hifi dealers.
Rob Sinden
Registered user
Hi PP
This is the response to your question from the factory.
Obviously there is no DSP that can handle reflections, however, what often is very annoying in hard rooms is that the peaks will take forever to die out. So, by attenuating the peaks to have the same level as the rest of the frequency range you also achieve that they decay faster – i.e. they have a shorter reverberation time.
The only way you can control a hard room is by controlling the dispersion. This can be done e.g by using corner woofers with high x-over points. By doing that you ensure that the bass frequencies can only travel into the room. They are not reflected off all walls as they would be from a normal floorstanding speaker placed well away from the walls (remember that all speakers are omnipolar in the bass).
If you want more technical info I believe the AES has a document from when Lyngdorf presented RoomPerfect to them. This is their own document so you would have to buy it from the AES.
This is the response to your question from the factory.
Obviously there is no DSP that can handle reflections, however, what often is very annoying in hard rooms is that the peaks will take forever to die out. So, by attenuating the peaks to have the same level as the rest of the frequency range you also achieve that they decay faster – i.e. they have a shorter reverberation time.
The only way you can control a hard room is by controlling the dispersion. This can be done e.g by using corner woofers with high x-over points. By doing that you ensure that the bass frequencies can only travel into the room. They are not reflected off all walls as they would be from a normal floorstanding speaker placed well away from the walls (remember that all speakers are omnipolar in the bass).
If you want more technical info I believe the AES has a document from when Lyngdorf presented RoomPerfect to them. This is their own document so you would have to buy it from the AES.