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Banning escooters on trains

Ah, a classic pfm miserable buggers thread. E-scooters are an affordable, easy to use, low impact method of personal transport, how can that be a bad thing?
I agree that some e-scooter riders are anti-social menaces but so are some drivers, cyclists, motor-cyclists, pedestrians, horse riders... As the newspaper cutting above shows the main victims are the scooter riders themselves. I'd like to see more education for all road and pavement users in safe sharing of space, not a ban of something which is basically good.
That’s ok as long as the twats are kept off the pavement and required to have insurance.
 
Ah, a classic pfm miserable buggers thread. E-scooters are an affordable, easy to use, low impact method of personal transport, how can that be a bad thing?
I agree that some e-scooter riders are anti-social menaces but so are some drivers, cyclists, motor-cyclists, pedestrians, horse riders... As the newspaper cutting above shows the main victims are the scooter riders themselves. I'd like to see more education for all road and pavement users in safe sharing of space, not a ban of something which is basically good.

All sounds very reasonable but even the worst car drivers generally don’t drive on pavements or the wrong way down roads or cycle lanes on a regular basis. Nor do they modify their vehicles to achieve speeds two or three times faster than the legal limit for their vehicles and then add in driving the wrong way on roads, cycle lanes and on pavements. I would also suggest that pedestrians and horse riders are excluded from the analogy given that the risk to others from them is negligible at best compared to the other means described.

In this context “low impact” would require some clarity. Low impact on whom exactly? The scheme to put bicycles for hire in key locations in central Manchester was an embarrassing disaster. Thefts were regular. Bikes were discarded all over busy pavements and caused multiple incidents for disabled pavement users and others whilst the users were amongst the very worst in terms of riding, you guessed, on pavements and the wrong way down roads and cycle lanes. Replacing said bicycles with e-scooters has produced exactly the same issues. No-one is giving up cars, public transport etc. to use them either.

As regards shared spaces I can only assume you’ve not read anything on the subject for three or four years. The overwhelming consensus is that shared spaces are an idea that was a good idea on paper but the reality has killed and injured pedestrians and others. The general direction of travel, pardon the pun, is for their removal and banning. People who use navigation/long canes have been fully trained on being safe pedestrians but the evidence is overwhelmingly that shared spaces injure or kill them.
 
Two very good posts above from @Bob McC and @Mike Hughes .

So I go for my rehab walk on Friday.

Narrow pavement with a hedge one side and a busy road the other.

A gentleman walking his small dog (a Pug) ahead of me. Suddenly, an e-scooter rider is hurtling, and I mean hurtling, towards him.

He seems to fully expecting the dog walker to bury himself in the hedge, so he can stay on the pavement. The dog walker seems to be expecting the rider to dismount.

No. The rider rides through between the walker and the dog and then gets tangled up in the dog lead.

Dog is now choked, so the walker releases the lead. The rider doesn't give a *UC*!

The dog is dragged into the road. The only thing I can do, is step into the road, and stop the cars, as the dog is now entangled with the rider and his own lead. The rider stops and manages free the lead, enough for him to restart at breakneck speed.

Here's the "interesting" bit. The first and second car drivers are dog owners which I didn't realise obviously.

The first one (lady) rushes out to the choking dog and releases the lead. The dog is distressed and has quite a bloodied nose.

I turn around to the second car passenger gets out onto the pavement and catch the rider.

The police are called. I watch. In the meantime, the dog walker, is massively distressed. He's about 65.

During the same time, all the rider is saying, is that the dog walker should have picked up his dog to make space for him to pass on the pavement. The rider actually seemed a decent kid.

The police arrive and do nothing!

I point out that I'm a witness, and willing to make a statement. They're not interested.

So, these riders are entitled to the pavement now????!!!!

I'll take a picture when I'm next walking to show the pavement.
 
Ha, the usual crap.

We need cleaner travel options, I personally prefer active methods but they are not for everyone. E-bikes are great & open up cycling for those who are a bit older or less fit.

The main problem is cars, we should be using them far less & existing motoring laws should be better enforced.

The moral panic around e-bikes, scooters etc is bizarre. The feigned concern for the disabled & elderly always seems to surface whenever a new solution is tried. I never really seem to see the same outrage around pavement parking but a few e-scooters on the path - call the cops it’s an outrage etc etc.

I can see why train companies have banned them though as if they are currently illegal then you are abetting.
 
All sounds very reasonable but even the worst car drivers generally don’t drive on pavements or the wrong way down roads or cycle lanes on a regular basis. Nor do they modify their vehicles to achieve speeds two or three times faster than the legal limit for their vehicles and then add in driving the wrong way on roads, cycle lanes and on pavements. I would also suggest that pedestrians and horse riders are excluded from the analogy given that the risk to others from them is negligible at best compared to the other means described.

In this context “low impact” would require some clarity. Low impact on whom exactly? The scheme to put bicycles for hire in key locations in central Manchester was an embarrassing disaster. Thefts were regular. Bikes were discarded all over busy pavements and caused multiple incidents for disabled pavement users and others whilst the users were amongst the very worst in terms of riding, you guessed, on pavements and the wrong way down roads and cycle lanes. Replacing said bicycles with e-scooters has produced exactly the same issues. No-one is giving up cars, public transport etc. to use them either.

As regards shared spaces I can only assume you’ve not read anything on the subject for three or four years. The overwhelming consensus is that shared spaces are an idea that was a good idea on paper but the reality has killed and injured pedestrians and others. The general direction of travel, pardon the pun, is for their removal and banning. People who use navigation/long canes have been fully trained on being safe pedestrians but the evidence is overwhelmingly that shared spaces injure or kill them.
The worst drivers literally do all this! They also drive without licenses & insurance, they mount pavements, kill pedestrians etc etc. what part of the world do you live in, have you never witnessed a boy racer with a loud exhaust & over tinted windows.

I’m not a massive fan of some shared spaces but proper infrastructure requires car reduction & we know the usual suspects won’t like that. Less cars & more of everything thing else
 
you clearly don't live around here - council are rabid about issuing tickets
Good. It’s a free pass in Sheffield. I’ve seen parents park up on the path to unload bikes etc for the local park. The local park has a big car park but they charge £1 an hour so the £50k SUV goes up the kerb. It’s absolutely maddening, makes everything more dangerous.
 
That be Brizzle; where commuting is a contact sport : D

Yes, I can well believe it! Of course, there will be those who use the things responsibly but from my observations, they are more commonly ridden by those with complete disregard for any rules or consideration of others. I’m amazed such blatant law breaking is tolerated. They need licensing and insurance, ANPR would clean up in Bristol from the road offences I witnessed. Thankfully, such nonsense hasn’t percolated around here!
 
Two very good posts above from @Bob McC and @Mike Hughes .

So I go for my rehab walk on Friday.

Narrow pavement with a hedge one side and a busy road the other.

A gentleman walking his small dog (a Pug) ahead of me. Suddenly, an e-scooter rider is hurtling, and I mean hurtling, towards him.

He seems to fully expecting the dog walker to bury himself in the hedge, so he can stay on the pavement. The dog walker seems to be expecting the rider to dismount.

No. The rider rides through between the walker and the dog and then gets tangled up in the dog lead.

Dog is now choked, so the walker releases the lead. The rider doesn't give a *UC*!

The dog is dragged into the road. The only thing I can do, is step into the road, and stop the cars, as the dog is now entangled with the rider and his own lead. The rider stops and manages free the lead, enough for him to restart at breakneck speed.

Here's the "interesting" bit. The first and second car drivers are dog owners which I didn't realise obviously.

The first one (lady) rushes out to the choking dog and releases the lead. The dog is distressed and has quite a bloodied nose.

I turn around to the second car passenger gets out onto the pavement and catch the rider.

The police are called. I watch. In the meantime, the dog walker, is massively distressed. He's about 65.

During the same time, all the rider is saying, is that the dog walker should have picked up his dog to make space for him to pass on the pavement. The rider actually seemed a decent kid.

The police arrive and do nothing!

I point out that I'm a witness, and willing to make a statement. They're not interested.

So, these riders are entitled to the pavement now????!!!!

I'll take a picture when I'm next walking to show the pavement.

You should have taken the cops number and complained to the chief constable. Then send his reply to the local rag "Chief Constable condones illegal use of escooters and refuses to prosecute when an accident happens"
 
I suspect a local rag, if it still exists wouldn't be interested. Most don't really do their own journalism anymore and just republish from others sources.
 
Ha, the usual crap.

We need cleaner travel options, I personally prefer active methods but they are not for everyone. E-bikes are great & open up cycling for those who are a bit older or less fit.

The main problem is cars, we should be using them far less & existing motoring laws should be better enforced.

The moral panic around e-bikes, scooters etc is bizarre. The feigned concern for the disabled & elderly always seems to surface whenever a new solution is tried. I never really seem to see the same outrage around pavement parking but a few e-scooters on the path - call the cops it’s an outrage etc etc.

I can see why train companies have banned them though as if they are currently illegal then you are abetting.

Interesting points woodface . however parked cars dont normally speed in the middle of the road with no helmets , they dont normally hurtle along the pavement and potentially injure people

Here we have designated cycle pathways everywhere as the city seeks to be cleaner . these are superb . the BIG problem is irresponsible e scooter users using them on busy roads . Several mums have lot their kids to them and many more will . they are dangerous
 
All the research seems to indicate that people on e-scooters are migrating from walking or public transport, so there's no benefit from lower vehicle use. I don't really see the problem with e-bikes, they've been around for a while and I don't suppose the proportion of idiot riders is any different to any other form of transport. They shouldn't be conflated with scooters.
 
I have @Woodface on ignore but face the usual problem that if anyone quotes someone on ignore then I get to see it whether I like it or not. Let’s deal with those points one at a time then.

“Ha, the usual crap.

We need cleaner travel options, I personally prefer active methods but they are not for everyone. E-bikes are great & open up cycling for those who are a bit older or less fit.

The main problem is cars, we should be using them far less & existing motoring laws should be better enforced.

The moral panic around e-bikes, scooters etc is bizarre. The feigned concern for the disabled & elderly always seems to surface whenever a new solution is tried. I never really seem to see the same outrage around pavement parking but a few e-scooters on the path - call the cops it’s an outrage etc etc.

I can see why train companies have banned them though as if they are currently illegal then you are abetting.”

We do need cleaner travel options but anything with a battery is not necessarily a cleaner option. The materials used in production have a significant environmental cost and the battery production in particular can mean that there’s a greater cost to the environment than the same person using public transport. Same, but bigger issue, with e-bikes and electric cars. Mainstream media have now sniffed the story on the latter and articles are beginning to appear pointing out that electric cars are potentially about as environmentally friendly as carbon offsets i.e. not at all.

Wholly agree re: car usage but people don’t surrender cars unless they can travel long distances easily by the alternatives and their one off experiences of public transport can often be awful.

Important to say that there is no framing of this discussion as a “moral panic”. That is incorrect and the only place I have seen that framing is in the post above. I suspect it says more about the poster than the issue. The issues are purely practical.

The knowledge of disability displayed above is dreadful. The “feigned concern” comment is appalling. Certainly my concern comes from being an actual disabled person but it’s fair to say that enough DPOs have raised these issues along with individual activists for it to be clear enough these are real and serious issues. There are either legit concerns or there are not. Nobody needs to feign anything to get that point across. Yes, pavement parking is a huge issue but it gets less press because it’s harder to pin down. One person with a push chair, wheel chair, crutches, frame or cane may need to go onto a road to navigate past but once they’ve done that there’s every chance they won’t encounter the same person again or will choose alternative routes if available and practical. In some cases people simply give up and don’t go out again. Very often the owner of the vehicle is a neighbour so there are long term impacts in complaining. The reality is that most disabled people face such significant social model barriers daily that the idea that you complain about everything you face, and if you don’t then you’re lying about it being a problem, is ignorant, ableist and genuinely offensive. So, no, you won’t see the same outrage around pavement parking but that’s only because you don’t understand disability and it’s consequences. It has no relevance to this discussion.

The point about e-scooters and bikes is around speed and visibility. The numbers don’t matter. One e-scooter impacts almost everyone it passes. Parents having to grab children because they can’t be sure which way the driver is going to go and don’t have time to react. People in mobility vehicles or with mobility issues who have to stop for the same reason. People with hearing or sight impairments who simply don’t see or hear the things coming until they are upon them. Important to remember that this isn’t some discrete population. These things impact huge numbers over the age of sixty. People walking pets with retracting leads. Visible to a walker or a cyclist. Someone doing 40mph? I’ve seen the consequences.

I’m sure we all long for a simple answer here but simplistic reductive posts such as the above really don’t help.
 
Interesting points woodface . however parked cars dont normally speed in the middle of the road with no helmets , they dont normally hurtle along the pavement and potentially injure people

Here we have designated cycle pathways everywhere as the city seeks to be cleaner . these are superb . the BIG problem is irresponsible e scooter users using them on busy roads . Several mums have lot their kids to them and many more will . they are dangerous
When cars are parked in the pavement it often means that people have to step into the road, particularly if they are pushing a buggy or pram. It also makes it more dangerous to cross a road etc. These are significant knock on effects. More children die as a result of being hit by a car.

So, the legal scooters are generally part of official hire schemes, all the others are illegal. Personally I don’t see a problem with the hire schemes in cities & them being on the road. I doubt there is any evidence that they are more dangerous than cars. I am not sure about them being used on cycle paths, I actually don’t really like shared use paths; it lumps vulnerable groups together. Dog walkers with extendable leads can be a hazard to cyclists & walkers but I don’t think we should necessarily ban them.

We need to be very clear eyed where the real problems lie.

The two unfortunate kids who died the other week shouldn’t have been on the road, legally they were not entitled to be riding such a machine. I understand the rider was quite experienced on motorbikes, brought up with them; we’ve all done daft things in our youth. Unfortunately they paid the ultimate price.
 
I have @Woodface on ignore but face the usual problem that if anyone quotes someone on ignore then I get to see it whether I like it or not. Let’s deal with those points one at a time then.

“Ha, the usual crap.

We need cleaner travel options, I personally prefer active methods but they are not for everyone. E-bikes are great & open up cycling for those who are a bit older or less fit.

The main problem is cars, we should be using them far less & existing motoring laws should be better enforced.

The moral panic around e-bikes, scooters etc is bizarre. The feigned concern for the disabled & elderly always seems to surface whenever a new solution is tried. I never really seem to see the same outrage around pavement parking but a few e-scooters on the path - call the cops it’s an outrage etc etc.

I can see why train companies have banned them though as if they are currently illegal then you are abetting.”

We do need cleaner travel options but anything with a battery is not necessarily a cleaner option. The materials used in production have a significant environmental cost and the battery production in particular can mean that there’s a greater cost to the environment than the same person using public transport. Same, but bigger issue, with e-bikes and electric cars. Mainstream media have now sniffed the story on the latter and articles are beginning to appear pointing out that electric cars are potentially about as environmentally friendly as carbon offsets i.e. not at all.

Wholly agree re: car usage but people don’t surrender cars unless they can travel long distances easily by the alternatives and their one off experiences of public transport can often be awful.

Important to say that there is no framing of this discussion as a “moral panic”. That is incorrect and the only place I have seen that framing is in the post above. I suspect it says more about the poster than the issue. The issues are purely practical.

The knowledge of disability displayed above is dreadful. The “feigned concern” comment is appalling. Certainly my concern comes from being an actual disabled person but it’s fair to say that enough DPOs have raised these issues along with individual activists for it to be clear enough these are real and serious issues. There are either legit concerns or there are not. Nobody needs to feign anything to get that point across. Yes, pavement parking is a huge issue but it gets less press because it’s harder to pin down. One person with a push chair, wheel chair, crutches, frame or cane may need to go onto a road to navigate past but once they’ve done that there’s every chance they won’t encounter the same person again or will choose alternative routes if available and practical. In some cases people simply give up and don’t go out again. Very often the owner of the vehicle is a neighbour so there are long term impacts in complaining. The reality is that most disabled people face such significant social model barriers daily that the idea that you complain about everything you face, and if you don’t then you’re lying about it being a problem, is ignorant, ableist and genuinely offensive. So, no, you won’t see the same outrage around pavement parking but that’s only because you don’t understand disability and it’s consequences. It has no relevance to this discussion.

The point about e-scooters and bikes is around speed and visibility. The numbers don’t matter. One e-scooter impacts almost everyone it passes. Parents having to grab children because they can’t be sure which way the driver is going to go and don’t have time to react. People in mobility vehicles or with mobility issues who have to stop for the same reason. People with hearing or sight impairments who simply don’t see or hear the things coming until they are upon them. Important to remember that this isn’t some discrete population. These things impact huge numbers over the age of sixty. People walking pets with retracting leads. Visible to a walker or a cyclist. Someone doing 40mph? I’ve seen the consequences.

I’m sure we all long for a simple answer here but simplistic reductive posts such as the above really don’t help.
I take a number of your points on board & concede they are heartfelt. I actually have a learning disabled brother & get really annoyed about people feigning concern to make wider points which are not really relevant.

I stand by my point that e-scooters & the like are not the major problem, cars are but we don’t acknowledge it. I think you massively downplay the problem of pavement parking. It’s a much bigger issue that e-scooters, bikes etc. it effects far more people.

I don’t really understand why certain disability groups seem to focus on these relatively minor issues; if there was less traffic & more space allocated to active/electric travel options we wouldn’t have the situation we have.

Cars do dominate our cities, everything else is just fiddling round the edges.
 


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