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B&W 800D

Im not so fussed about the home demo bit i imagine its a logistical nightmare with such hefty speakers, i would rather buy a used/exdemo set and try to sell them on if it doesn't work out. Just like youve done Phil.

Thanks for the detailed response Merlin, yes there are certainly a big difference in the FR of the above, and the 800 seems to deviate from neutrality by quite a bit!
If i'm down your way i will try and come and have a listen thank you. I did contact a few French sellers but unfortunately they never got back to me.

Space

You'd be mad not to home dem speakers of the capability of 800Ds or big JBLs. The room and the amps make such a huge impact on the sound not demming would be daft. the latest 800s are apparently much easier to drive than the earlier versions but you will still need a very capable amp to get the best from them. IMO they are at their best played louder. Why buy big beast like them and not use them loud.

The FR plot posted for the 800s seems to be a bit of an outlier. I think stereophile measured them much flatter through the mid to higher frequencies

Personally the big JBLs I've heard were a bit PA-like. I find that kind of presentation gets a bit tiresome after a while
 
The FR plot posted for the 800s seems to be a bit of an outlier. I think stereophile measured them much flatter through the mid to higher frequencies.

Sorry to say those measurements are from Stereophile Colin. All plots are averaged across 30 deg in order to provide a constant. I posted them to highlight the differences rather than to suggest one was right and one wrong - as I mentioned in my post.

It's one of the reasons IMHO that they sound better at higher replay levels and somewhat laid back/matter of fact to my ears. That and the difficult load.

As I also mentioned, personally I've owned around forty pairs of high end loudspeakers. To me, the JBL's are not just the best, they are hugely better in my room than any of the others I've enjoyed over the past twenty years or so. I have friends who have absolutely no interest in hifi whatsoever who has asked me to leave the K2's to them in my will. That's a first.

It's best for any prospective purchaser to listen to loudspeakers in their own room. It's easier to narrow down the choice if you look at the room dimensions and the port frequency/position limitations but nothing will beat trying something for yourself in your own environment. I have found my ultimate loudspeaker. Unless I move, that will be it for me.
 
I now have 801 series 80's. They are outstanding in a large room with a powerful amplifier. A couple of guests have recently commented that they sound better than any system they have heard and they are both experienced audiophiles. These are first generation 801's from 1979 but be careful, the later versions have a different tweeter that is "more revealing!"

I do believe though that the large room and powerful amp is the key. My room is 40 feet x 20 feet with 15 foot high ceilings. The amp is a Nakamichi PA7, a Nelson Pass monster design for Threshold and licensed by Nakamichi. Large current solid state amps are the only way to drive the 801.

In another room I have some JBL studio monitors and they are very different. I enjoy them immensely but they have a different sonic signature.
 
The problem I always had with B&W's was that, as well built and well designed a product as they were I just never really liked to listen to them that much. Great speakers, but not terribly musical FOR ME. I know tonnes of owners who've had them and loved them for years on end.

They have to be well matched to the amplifiers....like any speaker, but I've found that B&W's always liked big, american style amplifiers (Krell, levinson, vtl, classe, bryston, or valve stuff like audio research, etc.) and don't work well at all with lean british amps, thus forcing a certain sonic signature even further in a direction that again, just isn't to my taste.

It's a top notch product, beautifully designed and built but just never worked on the synergy/personal taste side.
 
In the same bracket you might want to audition PMC BB5s.

i did a lot of research before purchase ( but didn't hear the JBLs).

Much like the 801Ds they need plenty of power.

Main office is now at Biggleswade so could be worth a call to see what's set up at the moment.
 
A number of PMC products I have seen tested share a broadly similar FR profile to the better B&W's - namely a reduction in sound power between 1khz and 5 khz. This probably helps to explain why they like a bit of welly.

Although I've never seen proper measurements for the big three ways, monitor manufacturers do tend, where possible, to "voice" their products in a similar way in order to establish consistency (something much appreciated in the professional arena).

Edited to add that I've found some for the iB1's. Far less overt than the B&W but still there in the voicing.

Pmcfig3.jpg



As always though, the importance of the room and it's reflections cannot be overstated in making a choice. Measurements like those I posted can only give a very rough idea of a loudspeaker's character in optimal conditions. The dispersion characteristics for one will be very different heavily. off axis.
 
I have previously posted my experience with 800Ds but in short:

*You cannot have too much power and I suspect 1kw a side is about right. Good luck with anything below about 300w.

*Sound good LOUD but below that there are better speakers. We're talking ASBO levels here.

*Sooner or later, the lack of detail/beauty/emotion in the midrange will cause you to dispense with them.

They are on my expensive error list - I actually think some of the various 805 models are much better speakers.
 
Merlin,

Strangely my copy of the B&W 800D FR is different from yours!! (taken from the Stereophile website)

511B800fig4.jpg


Nevertheless, and as you said, the proof of a speaker is how it works in room. JA noted in the Stereophile review that the FR wasnt ruler flat but that the design had clearly been tuned by ear to sound best.

Abbydog - my MBL 9008A drives the latest version 800D fantastically well (about 160w / channel stereo). I am however looking for another 9008A to go mono with them, which is hiow they are best utilised.

Much loudness :)

Pip Pip
 
A number of PMC products I have seen tested share a broadly similar FR profile to the better B&W's - namely a reduction in sound power between 1khz and 5 khz. This probably helps to explain why they like a bit of welly.
As always though, the importance of the room and it's reflections cannot be overstated in making a choice. Measurements like those I posted can only give a very rough idea of a loudspeaker's character in optimal conditions. The dispersion characteristics for one will be very different heavily. off axis.

The big difference with the larger PMCs is their being a transmission line design.

You get about an extra 8ve of bass extension which i think is why i found them more suitable.
Depends what you're going to listen to to some extent but with classical organ, electronic dance and some film soundtracks it's very valuable and eliminates the need for a sub.

With a total vinyl front end that may be irrelevant or it may just get the most out of what's there.

If you're up for that sort of budget i'd very strongly advise an audition.
 
The big difference with the larger PMCs is their being a transmission line design.

You get about an extra 8ve of bass extension.

Not according to the measurements I'm afraid. What you seem to get is a larger quantity of bass centred around 90hz which would give in the impression of greater bass assuming the room played ball.

Colin, my measurements are from the 800 which I though was what ISTP posted about - my apologies and error. The character is still there with the Diamond version though as you can see. As I mentioned, neither is "right" or "wrong" they just end up in very different presentations.:)
 
My original idea was to try and get a pair of JBL Array 1400s, after reading a fair bit about them, they seem to fair very well in blind test with regard to the 800Ds. I like the idea of having a more open, real sounding, dynamic speaker and that is what is attracting me to horns (despite the JBLs being only 89db).
Reading between the lines here it seem like the 800s have to be played at realistic levels to work well, something that i'm not adverse too! But id also like them to keep some scale and realism at lower volumes too.

Ideally id still like to get a pair of JBLs but dont want to have to fork out for a new pair as they'd loose half there money as soon as they land on my doorstep, the Arrays aren't made with the same care and quality of the B&Ws either.
What attracts me to the 800s is there are a fair few knocking around the 2nd hand market, i dont know how easy they'd be to sell on after, but i suspect if i did go for a pair i wouldn't loose that much.
 
To reiterate what everyone else has said, but seems in need of repeating : you cannot cannot cannot buy without auditioning. You're evaluating what's in your head. Speakers are completely personal and room, electronics play a huge amount into how they perform. You do not want to be disappointed.

At these price ranges local dealers should be able to get you an in home demo.

This is all conjecture without a demo.

What's giving it away that you're buying by reading is the comment about the 89 dB. Seriously this is all irrelevant.

Go get the speakers in your home and then report your findings.
 
At that price I would audition a pair of Vivid audio speakers , K1 or G2/G1..best speakers I have ever heard..I have the G1's.
I am doing my room etc around the speakers to get the best out of them as they are superb , not vice versa.
 
I should maybe add as a counter that I have rarely demmed a pair of speakers prior to my getting them in almost two decades bar.

I've had a lot of speakers in that time, but only one pair that really sucked - funnily enough the two pairs that didn't work were the ones I had on dem (I was concerned whether they would work in the room as the did not have published data - Harbeth & Living Voice).

If you know your living room, and have an idea of where you can put the speakers, then things are a lot easier IME. Over forty pairs of loudspeakers have shown me that I always end up preferring neutrally balanced boxes over the long haul. They are the keepers. Much as Harman's blind tests have shown in fact. I therefore tend to rule out anything with overt deviations these days, and prefer a tightly controlled dispersion pattern because I don't live in a treated studio control room.

It's been fun learning - and doing it the way I have has enabled me to meet many people, travel, and to not lose money. It worked for me - maybe wouldn't for others. The only real hit I took was on a pair of Martin Logans that I bought new from a dealer many moons ago after a dem. Lesson learned. :)

If you are prepared to drive over to France, there's a pair of Arrays without boxes going for a song. Bear in mind though that they are both voiced for the US Market (very strong bottom end) and not a patch on the K2 because they do not use the Be drivers (whatever anyone says! I've owned both).
 
I've been on the look out for some "other" speakers but the search is proving rather illusive at the moment just wondering what people opinions are on the 800Ds as they are supposed to be more or less on the same level performance wise as the JBLs ive been hunting for (with little success) and the B&Ws are much more common!
I also like the fact that B&W still have drivers from stock for 30 year old 801s, as i don't think i'll be buying another set of speakers for a while if i'm happy with these.

If they don't match the room i can sell the B&Ws on without to much loss. Other speakers which appeal are the Avantgarde Zero 1s, but ive yet to hear a demo yet.

Anyway opinions from owners on these, good, bad, indifferent, anywhere i can addition a pair in the NW England?

3 or 4 years ago I was going to buy B & W 804D speakers until I had a home demo. Hi-Fi World Measured performance : Tweeter output was consistantly high, peaking up by + 6 dB. This will produce audible brightness in the treble, even a treble sting. HF output above 3 kHz borders on the excessive for a so-called high fidelity speaker, it is far from accurate.
 
To reiterate what everyone else has said, but seems in need of repeating : you cannot cannot cannot buy without auditioning. You're evaluating what's in your head. Speakers are completely personal and room, electronics play a huge amount into how they perform. You do not want to be disappointed.

At these price ranges local dealers should be able to get you an in home demo.

This is all conjecture without a demo.

What's giving it away that you're buying by reading is the comment about the 89 dB. Seriously this is all irrelevant.

Go get the speakers in your home and then report your findings.

Absolutely correct.
 
If you are prepared to drive over to France, there's a pair of Arrays without boxes going for a song. Bear in mind though that they are both voiced for the US Market (very strong bottom end) and not a patch on the K2 because they do not use the Be drivers (whatever anyone says! I've owned both).

Yes this is the pair a forum member told me about, unfortunately hes contacted the guy about them on my behalf, I was willing to pay for them if could keep them until i had a chance to drive over but he never got back to me about them unfortunately. I think they might work well in my room as there is a null at 100hz just where the peak is on the graph, the room misses some energy in this area unfortunately and the speakers i use now don't have the subjective hump that many speakers do, of course they could be a boomy mess too! (the speakers i use now are infinite baffle)

I'm sure K2 are better, as they should be, but its whatever comes up first, still would like to hear the later 800s too.

What is your budget?

More than what your selling your 100s for! ;)
 


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