Weiss-Man
pfm Member
You heard it here first Ladies & Gents!!
B&O rewrites the loudspeaker rule book
- Thread starter Jonboi
- Start date
You heard it here first Ladies & Gents!!
seethroughyou
pfm Member
I sure do....answering your first point. But if 54 thousand pounds is the purchase price... B & O might as well coat the entire thing in 24 carat gold and charge whatever astronomical figure , comes into their head. Now , where is the 'musical software' to justify such an outlay?
For any intents and purposes, it is a 'Look at me' brand attention thing, appealing to the ever wishful HI Fi chattering classes to own a piece of B& O equipment....even if is 'any piece' , no matter how meagre- BUT with a B& O label!!!
In practical terms .... (I;E) How many pink fish members will be purchasers? There is the REAL answer of this speaker's "matter much" importance .Have not we all seen people need 'to come down to earth' , at times in their euphoric rapturous raves about the alleged abilities in areas, regarding Hi Fi products?
B& O is just another in the gathering line of cult products trying to sell 'some exclusivity'. A case of "Do you or do you not own one of their ( Choose the brand!)systems?"
For another sobering thought , people should first... just browse through their copy of that large illustrated book on the 'History of B&O'. Plus- at all the photos of their designs down the years. In retrospect, many for their time, were straight out 'stick - in - the -mud' designs- to the point of being ' retro'.
Then it all seemed to completely change....where the ' futuristic design look' impact - became paramount. Up as well, went the general pricing ....and performance in aural terms, then appeared to become as a consideration -a mere secondary item.
Here we have ladies and gentlemen, a reply oozing with complete ignorance, old prejudices and sprinkled with thought disordered ranting.
There is no definition of what a speaker should or shouldn't look like despite what Music Freak states and his preference for "new and sizable Wharfedale" What he is referring to here is what a speaker is according to his preconceived and archaic views. Why can't a speaker be something other than a tall rectangular box or 'monkey coffin' as some call it. Why shouldn't it be made of Platonic solids. In this case, given its weight of electronics and multiple drivers, it would have been unsafe and impractical to make it into a sphere as Music F suggests. It's fine criticising but if the engineers asked him to solve the design problem of wrapping this many drivers each with its own amp and DAC, Music F would come back with return with nothing but stock criticisms and school boy quips. It's fine being an armchair critique but far harder to complete an architectural and industrial design degree and wrestle with a narrow design brief around a fixed engineering solution whether it's this speaker or another object.
I also take issue with the idea that acoustic technology not being allowed to move forward and find new solutions. There's isn't an acoustic engineer or recording engineer worth his salt that would design a listening room without either specially engineering the room and treating it or using room EQ or preferably both. Given that greatest distortion in the audio chain and compromises are due to the room interacting with the radiation from the drivers, this is THE place to start instead of obsessing about tube rolling, speaker cables, racks, class A variants, silver vs copper. For this brave step, B&O should be applauded along with PSI, Trinnov, Illusonic, Genelec etc... Doing this elegantly and without too many boxes and speakers all over the place is the trick and again B&O need to be applauded.
I would also take issue with Music Freak's rather passive aggressive approach against B&O fans and purchasers in his veiled ad hominem attack. No one, who I have ever met, who saves for months or years to buy B&O does it to impress anyone else. They buy it because it sounds fabulous to their ears, looks fabulous to their eyes, with a few exceptions lasts 20-30 years before servicing is required, holds its value as well as anything else out there and makes their heart flutter when they interact with it. What I have said here could apply to a Naim, Meridian, Linn, Kondo, Wilson fan and although a lot of this is not to my taste or ears I wouldn't for one minute start denigrating the owners of such by saying they buy their gear to try and impress their friends. So intimating that B&O owners are superficial, vain and foolish appears to be the gist of Music Freak's second argument. Is this the best analysis of B&O 90 plus year vision that he can formulate. Now let's suppose we do have a handful of B&O owners that buy it to impress their friends who may or may not be impressed, it doesn't take a stretch of imagination to see that there may be handful of Vitus, Kondo, dCS, MSB, Marantz, Cessaro, Rolex, Ferrari, Barbour, Laura Ashley, Royal Doulton, Faberge, NAD, or whatevere buy what they buy to partially impress or seek affirmation from others - so what! Let them have their moment of glory for a few seconds for the short time they are on this mortal coil. Live and let live. What makes Music Freak's decisions and purchases so much more honourable and meaningful.
The bias and old fashioned prejudices may drive his statements but it's not a view shared by hundreds of thousands that appreciate it and buy it from one generation to the next. Music Freak must find this rather small and quiet Scandinavian company that invests millions on anechoic chambers, a small crew of staff consisting of some of the best acoustic and industrial engineers and its small suppliers who all earn a modest wage and support a small town in Denmark with a vision to do something different than the a lot of the rest of the Hifi industry, so very galling indeed. What have B&O, Scanspeak, Texas Instruments, Frakenpohl and Poulheim done to him to make his blood boil so?
I don't like/don't like anymore: tubes, vinyl, mono, wooden monkey coffins, passive speakers, poweramps the size of microwaves and racks of black boxes but I still appreciate those that remain committed to these solutions and I hear the joy their gear brings them and there should be space in world for them. I like new technology. If Music Freak had it his own way, two hundred years from now we would still be churning out the same audio solutions. Not everything that is novel or new is right or worthy but amongst cycles of innovative products there are glimpses of new technology that is more correct or fruitful or noble and B&O and a few others are trying to research and develop this slowly. Room EQ, speaker directivity, phase control, step response, power response control, maintaining frequency response on and off axis are the next steps in audio research and hi fi development. Novel materials, strange shapes and unusual approaches may be called on. Think Eurofighter, stealth bombers, ramjets and not wooden biplanes.
He also criticised this product for its "OCD and shifting adjustments". When you sit on the couch you press 'couch' and the software does all the adjustments in a fraction of a second, when you sit near the fire you can press another preset and and so on. The adjustments are done by your installer and never have to be touched until you move furniture around or you move home. In which case, you can either get an installer to do it or you can do it yourself. Takes a few minutes to set presets. What fictional OCD shifting adjustments is he piping on about? Changing the output of the speaker is as easy as selecting a source on a preamp. I note this comment comes from someone that likes to tinker with AWG, Esoteric and Monster speaker cabling.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yC0hjRHCYs0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PW8n2Op_nDU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EC9WkFLb7n4
Music freak
pfm Member
Well I must certainly say I have pricked someone's balloon, today!.
If the truth was known, probably also using... one of those ancient B&O tone arms that looked like a straight ,thin women's' knitting needle bent towards the end and also immediately around the same point , skewed off -angle to provide 'offset'. Those hilarious excuses for a tone arm - in motion,...they looked rather doozy too, as they widely bobbed & jigged about, on any ever - so slight, un - flat disc.
If one word alone was needed, in judging and capturing the totality of B&O 's concepts, IMHO it should be "paucity". A word that in meaning, can carry virtues plus a lot of disadvantages I would like someone truly "justify in monetary terms, such 54, 000 pounds expenditure" to reproduce what are the wide variable technical standards employed on the copious amounts of software material , released up to the present day. I imagine these speakers were meant to be actually used on any and every type/form of recording and not just sit in a room and be admired.
Rodney gold
Im just me...
Read the white paper and be astounded
54k is cheap
what will be expensive is for the local council come and install 3 phase power at your house..the system can do 16 000 watts and can actually go up to 38 000 watts for some split second ...
54k is cheap
what will be expensive is for the local council come and install 3 phase power at your house..the system can do 16 000 watts and can actually go up to 38 000 watts for some split second ...
Well I must certainly say I have pricked someone's balloon, today!.
If the truth was known, probably also using... one of those ancient B&O tone arms that looked like a straight ,thin women's' knitting needle bent towards the end and also immediately around the same point , skewed off -angle to provide 'offset'. Those hilarious excuses for a tone arm - in motion,...they looked rather doozy too, as they widely bobbed & jigged about, on any ever - so slight, un - flat disc.
If one word alone was needed, in judging and capturing the totality of B&O 's concepts, IMHO it should be "paucity". A word that in meaning, can carry virtues plus a lot of disadvantages I would like someone truly "justify in monetary terms, such 54, 000 pounds expenditure" to reproduce what are the wide variable technical standards employed on the copious amounts of software material , released up to the present day. I imagine these speakers were meant to be actually used on any and every type/form of recording and not just sit in a room and be admired.
Perhaps it is the IMHO attempts at the T word?
To help your arguments could you pass comments on Meridians DSP speakers? or tell us about tonearms that don't have an offset? Parallel tracking arms? Ah, B&O have got that covered too. If B&O's concept are describable as "paucity" but you have also shown that you don't understand what they are doing. Have a re-read and then tell us where a greater concept has been brought to market outside something like CD?
No balloons pricked for me. It is just odd to see someone putting emojis of joy after these comments.
Weiss-Man
pfm Member
The fact that you (or I) can't afford these speakers, and you thinking that £54,000 is a crazy price for speakers, should not form your opinion that these are bad speakers. Heaven forbid, but do you think that you might actually earn more respect if you had heard them first before making your remarks?
In the realms of high end hi fi, £54,000 is nowhere near the top end. If we were talking about Vox Olymians at £270,000 per pair, would you have made the same comments. If you did, I would also assume that you have heard a pair?
Of course, if you don't like the look of the speakers, that is your opinion, and I have to say that I partly agree. To make the other comments though, in my opinion makes you look a bit foolish!
In the realms of high end hi fi, £54,000 is nowhere near the top end. If we were talking about Vox Olymians at £270,000 per pair, would you have made the same comments. If you did, I would also assume that you have heard a pair?
Of course, if you don't like the look of the speakers, that is your opinion, and I have to say that I partly agree. To make the other comments though, in my opinion makes you look a bit foolish!
Music freak
pfm Member
(1) I see you appear to be somewhat suggesting I am completely ignorant about Hi Fi. As if I do not know the significance of tone-arm offset'. My comment was merely a fuller description of the look of that strange B&O 'knitting needle design'.arm
(2) I am familiar with B & O's attempt at straight -line arm tracking.
"Covered by B & O " you say....., now of course for convenience - let's just forget the other manufacturers AROUND THE WORLD that also had straight line tracking 'covered as you put it. Even English Garrard attempted a version in a form of articulated arm ( originally used in the Worden arm) ....only trouble being ...the side movement friction was 200 mgm...making it almost 'mandatory to use a 2 gram downward tracking force playing pressure to counter-act against this force.
I also advise, take a real good look at the rest of the World's manufacturers making Hi Fi. Huge numbers of both high end & middle of the road products being produced.....besides the tunnel -visioned Euoocentric pis*ing contests we have seen from Linn, Naim and now B&O
Music freak
pfm Member
In further reply... there is no reason to ponder & wonder on what appears to be a strange adaption of irony.
Quite simply, I cannot get over the fact that sane people are willing to believe every bit of some Hi Fi manufacturer's P.R 'guff' - hook, line & sinker..........and then vigorously defend and run with it as the most infallible Truth ever known to Man .
Till 'next year's newer improved model' comes , one imagines.
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
Such apparent knowledge of 1960's audio equipment and complete ignorance of digital sound processing and advances in acoustics research.
I'm guessing our new member is somewhat advanced in years
You might find the Classics section of real interest Music Freak, Music one too. Many of us are starting to get on (thankfully). There's a lot of knowledge on PFM.
I'm guessing our new member is somewhat advanced in years
You might find the Classics section of real interest Music Freak, Music one too. Many of us are starting to get on (thankfully). There's a lot of knowledge on PFM.
You call offset "offset", the arms don't have a sort of pseudo offset they have actual offset. I mentioned the B&O parallel trackers because they have covered various arm types. Of course other manufacturers have made parallel trackers from Technics to The Cartridge Man. Would the Black Widow tonearm be dismissed in the say way? You will know about several low mass arms?
I raised an issue about your statement
is how long years, it took -for European 'purist;' product manufacturers to catch onto the idea. A very short time ago they were willing to virtually sneer at the idea.
and pointed out that Meridian for one have been doing this since the 80s. Wouldn't your knowledge have told you this? This is the 3rd time I have pointed this out. I still await a reasoned reply but I don't mind if you don't.
Also
B&O have been tinker free for years. I know I sold it for years. Get a telly and some Beolink cable and you have a surround sound system set up on minutes.
Finally
B&O are great for keeping products in production. The CX100 speakers I use were in production for nearly 20 years. With more technology filled products there will be a faster turnover but we all understand that don't we?
darrenyeats
pfm Member
I like the looks with grilles. Without grilles, suddenly less keen.
One thing I loved about Beolab 5 when auditioned was the purity of its form, all related to function. It's inherently stunning.
PR kool aid or engineering triumph? Probably somewhere in between. But until I've heard the 90 I can't judge.
One thing I loved about Beolab 5 when auditioned was the purity of its form, all related to function. It's inherently stunning.
PR kool aid or engineering triumph? Probably somewhere in between. But until I've heard the 90 I can't judge.
Rodney gold
Im just me...
Read the white paper thing..to see how they back up their claims... serious stuff.. some amazing research and dsp etc going on..its worth the read
Rodney gold
Im just me...
Meridian dsp8000 SE is $80 000 ... and is not nearly as capable , on paper that is , than the B&O speakers
Its not considered outrageous
Its not considered outrageous
Not to you or I, but some seem to think so.
As I said I actually have a part finished similar style design (been working on it here and there for 4 years). It's not a variable directivity speaker but one that uses DSP to control multiple direct radiators to give constant directivity. I wonder what I should charge for such a statement speaker that one actually hopes to sell
As I said I actually have a part finished similar style design (been working on it here and there for 4 years). It's not a variable directivity speaker but one that uses DSP to control multiple direct radiators to give constant directivity. I wonder what I should charge for such a statement speaker that one actually hopes to sell
Tony L
Administrator
As ever it comes down to what market they are targeted at and how much that market will bare. There is a heck of a lot of staggeringly expensive audio kit these days, absurdly so IMHO, so I guess some people who also happen to be pretty serious music lovers must have that kind of cash to spare, but even so I'd expect it to be a very small market. More often such products, especially for large household name companies like B&O, are viewed more as advertising statement/proof of concept loss-leaders with the money being made on trickle-down technology at a far more affordable price. I can't imagine they expect to sell huge numbers, but I bet there will be some <£2k speakers featuring a lot of that technology and styling arriving fairly soon.
A lot of technology in the speakers - so much so that B&O could almost charge what they liked if they wanted to. The fact that a lot of posters don't consider the price unreasonable suggests that B&O have probably got their pricing about right. As a company B&O have the 'fashion statement' image but actually over the years have produced some very decent (and very reliable) products.
Tony L
Administrator
Is there really? I've only skim-read the white paper, but room correction aside (which is existing technology) the 'controlled dispersion' thing looks rather like having a level control for the side-firing drivers that can be adjusted via WiFi. Surely, should you wish, you could get a fairly similar effect with three perfectly ordinary pairs of speakers each side, one facing forward, two directly behind facing hard left and hard right, the former connected to one amp, the latter two pairs to another, and then adjust the dispersion/omni effect by adjusting the amp volumes? I'm sure there is a bit more than this going on in DSP with the B&O, and they are certainly using top-end drivers etc, but I'm not really seeing £54k's worth here myself, plus it looks rather like an 'effect' to me. By saying that I'm not the market as I certainly don't have £54k, and even if I did I'd be looking to build a whole room/system similar to a top grade studio control room, e.g. top-end Westlakes, MEGs, JBLs etc in a fully controlled acoustic space. You could get something truly extraordinary for £54K! In fact building a room from scratch with bloody huge integral concrete corner horns would cross my mind!
To be honest whilst I'm interested in all new technology to a degree I'm not yet seeing the need for altering dispersion at all. It is never something I've wanted to do despite currently owning two pairs of speakers that are arguably very narrow dispersion (Klipsch La Scalas and Tannoy Monitor Golds, either of which are more than capable of filling my neighbour's house with party music should I wish, let alone my own!).
PS This post isn't intended to be as negative as it no doubt reads. I'd really love to hear the B&O as it may well convince me and I do respect anything that pushes technology somewhere new, somewhere where it hasn't been before anyway. It's just at this point in time I just don't get what is so special about it, why I would want it. By comparison I get the Devialet Phantoms big time, I can really see what is so new, special and ground-breaking there (small yet genuinely full-range point-source, and actually affordable for the bandwidth on offer).