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Authoritarianism and democracy

Listened to this today and it made a lot of sense, well worth the time.



Karen Stenner and the authoritarian predisposition
The Spark
Helen Lewis interviews people offering solutions for our times. Political psychologist Karen Stenner explains how liberal democracy can tackle the challenge of authoritarianism.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000y7sq
Yes, I caught that - full of insight and thought-provoking. Found it a riveting listen too. Recommended.
 
33% of people are authoritarian, many of whom are thick.

I'd always thought it was more like 66%.

I think she said it's the thickos that can't cope with the complexities of democracy, hence they prefer the simple rules and controls of authoritariansim and then went onto say her job is to help governments simplify things. I wonder what her personal politics are.
 
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Tremendous post - everyone should listen to this. Life in the US is mindbogglingly complex, and this has been sold to the population as individualism (choose the healthcare and retirement options that are right for you), but is really just an opportunity for corporations to pick their pockets. The backlash against the overwhelming complexity is then used to get folks to vote for authoritarianism on the right, which will do nothing to reduce complexity.

If only more left wing political leaders got this.
 
Tremendous post - everyone should listen to this. Life in the US is mindbogglingly complex, and this has been sold to the population as individualism (choose the healthcare and retirement options that are right for you), but is really just an opportunity for corporations to pick their pockets. The backlash against the overwhelming complexity is then used to get folks to vote for authoritarianism on the right, which will do nothing to reduce complexity.

If only more left wing political leaders got this.
But If left wing politicians did get it, would people vote for it?
 
If left wing politicians would unite with the rest of the non-tory camp they would stand more of a chance.
 
If left wing politicians would unite with the rest of the non-tory camp they would stand more of a chance.
I'm always a bit wary of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' type arguments. It's rarely true, and marriages of convenience rarely last, or turn out to be that convenient. Better, IMHO, to hold the nose and go into an arrangement with eyes open, but positions clearly set out. Easier to dissolve, and also easier to enforce if you have them beforehand. That's one reason, I suspect, why the LibDems got played by the Tories in 2010.
 
Thanks for this, looks interesting, will listen when I get a chance. But have to say I’m a little triggered by the idea of Helen Lewis, a leading light in the campaign to delegitimise the only alternative to the current UK government, asking a psychologist how come we have authoritarianism.
 
I've never studied psychology formally. I was struck by her confidence that some attitudes are inherited rather than learned. It made me wonder whether there are any Marxist psychologists -- people who believe that all the significant aspects of human nature are a product of material relations, social relations. I guess I'd really need to look at her evidence -- that stuff about identical twins she mentions -- in order to comment. As always the devil's in the detail, and I bet things are much more debatable than she suggests.

This is strong stuff, hard for me to accept "journalistically" -- it needs to be scrutinised deeply before being accepted


An aversion to complexity and diversity . . . is just another way of being human . . . human societies flourish and prosper with some kind of balance between people who monitor the boundaries and guard against the strange and unfamiliar, and people who want to liberate and enable the individual. . . . Liberal democracy has now exceeded many people's capacity to tolerate it.
 
But If left wing politicians did get it, would people vote for it?

If you listen to the radio clip Karen Stenner suggests it's important to not keep triggering the authoritarians, so my comment was referring to certain left wing politicians being less vocal about certain issues (immigration, de-funding of police, multiculturalism, LGBTQ) since attempts to persuade authoritarians of the validity of these causes will likely backfire. Ms Stenner suggests that with certain issues it's better to get on with legislating to help solve problems, but not attempt to persuade / educate the opposition.

ISTM that, as much as Blair's labour party did improve the UK after decades of Thatcherism (and they really did) the lack of attention to the level of immigration (both EU and non EU), and the policy of encouraging multiculturalism rather than assimilation for immigrants may have unwittingly contributed to the eventual Brexit vote (and the loss of traditionally labour northern constituencies).
 
One of the points was that people who tend towards authoritarianism are less susceptible to reason, so however much what you tell them makes sense they will just block it out, it points out that the way to engage with them is concentrate on common values between different groups rather emphasising the difference.
 
If you listen to the radio clip Karen Stenner suggests it's important to not keep triggering the authoritarians, so my comment was referring to certain left wing politicians being less vocal about certain issues (immigration, de-funding of police, multiculturalism, LGBTQ) since attempts to persuade authoritarians of the validity of these causes will likely backfire. Ms Stenner suggests that with certain issues it's better to get on with legislating to help solve problems, but not attempt to persuade / educate the opposition.

ISTM that, as much as Blair's labour party did improve the UK after decades of Thatcherism (and they really did) the lack of attention to the level of immigration (both EU and non EU), and the policy of encouraging multiculturalism rather than assimilation for immigrants may have unwittingly contributed to the eventual Brexit vote (and the loss of traditionally labour northern constituencies).
Yes, I have that programme downloaded to my phone (the Sounds app is good) to make listening more than once easier.

It is an excellent and thought provoking discussion that raise many important points. One of it’s problems however, is it assumes that non-authoritarian parties should use their power to promote an inclusive society and to widen notions of national identity. While I agree wholeheartedly with Stenner’s research and analysis, it does not address the issue we currently have in the UK of being in the power of party with an agenda to exploit authoritarianism for political gain, a party that is deliberately narrowing national identity, curtailing discussion of difficult issues and exploiting, stoking and providing shelter for authoritarian fears.
 
Thanks for this, looks interesting, will listen when I get a chance. But have to say I’m a little triggered by the idea of Helen Lewis, a leading light in the campaign to delegitimise the only alternative to the current UK government, asking a psychologist how come we have authoritarianism.
Despite similar reservations about Helen Lewis, I gave it a go. I tried to keep an open mind but it really is as terrible as you might expect. Among the contentious claims are (my sarky comments in brackets):

Conservativism is a bulwark against authoritarianism (what, actually existing conservativism?)
Conservatives and liberals are natural allies against authoritarianism (what, actually existing liberals?)
1/3 of the population is genetically predisposed to authoritarianism (citation needed)
"Superwoke" is a variety of left-wing authoritarianism (neglects power relations)
Lack of cognitive capacity... stupid people are more likely to be authoritarian (define stupidity)
It's our responsibility to help those people to make peace with "liberal democracy" (how liberal and democratic are we?)
Shared values and shared authority - normative threats = loss of confidence in leaders + loss of sense of shared vaues (gee, how does that happen?)
Journalists are "by definition" more open to experience - love diversity, complexity, mising with different kinds of people... (frankly, this is beyond parody)
Diversity and complexity is overwhelming to some people (but not us sensible liberal types, oh no)
If you're in favour of diversity you should stop "banging on about it". Create a feeling of "oneness and sameness". (don't be too "uppity")
The left needs to get over its wariness of patriotism (yeah, that's worked well so far, hasn't it)
If only we could talk about immigration more freely (Christ, it's all we've talked about for over a decade!)
Steady as she goes - make politics boring again (What like successful politicians like Trump, Farage, Johnson?)

It's worth noting that the guest operates outside academia (she has her own consultancy business) - make of that what you will.

There are a few small crumbs of insight:

Don't call political opponents stupid and racist (bit late for that, really)
Possibility of unifying behind a vision of reducing inequality, UBI etc - good, but this is barely explored (patriotism and addressing legitimate concerns about immigration get more bandwidth)

But these ideas have all been explored more persuasively elsewhere.

In short, the analysis is shallow, ahistorical and psychologistic. It ignores power relationships (especially economic power) and is completely silent about the role of the press in creating division.
 
Despite similar reservations about Helen Lewis, I gave it a go. I tried to keep an open mind but it really is as terrible as you might expect. Among the contentious claims are (my sarky comments in brackets):

Conservativism is a bulwark against authoritarianism (what, actually existing conservativism?)
Conservatives and liberals are natural allies against authoritarianism (what, actually existing liberals?)
1/3 of the population is genetically predisposed to authoritarianism (citation needed)
"Superwoke" is a variety of left-wing authoritarianism (neglects power relations)
Lack of cognitive capacity... stupid people are more likely to be authoritarian (define stupidity)
It's our responsibility to help those people to make peace with "liberal democracy" (how liberal and democratic are we?)
Shared values and shared authority - normative threats = loss of confidence in leaders + loss of sense of shared vaues (gee, how does that happen?)
Journalists are "by definition" more open to experience - love diversity, complexity, mising with different kinds of people... (frankly, this is beyond parody)
Diversity and complexity is overwhelming to some people (but not us sensible liberal types, oh no)
If you're in favour of diversity you should stop "banging on about it". Create a feeling of "oneness and sameness". (don't be too "uppity")
The left needs to get over its wariness of patriotism (yeah, that's worked well so far, hasn't it)
If only we could talk about immigration more freely (Christ, it's all we've talked about for over a decade!)
Steady as she goes - make politics boring again (What like successful politicians like Trump, Farage, Johnson?)

It's worth noting that the guest operates outside academia (she has her own consultancy business) - make of that what you will.

There are a few small crumbs of insight:

Don't call political opponents stupid and racist (bit late for that, really)
Possibility of unifying behind a vision of reducing inequality, UBI etc - good, but this is barely explored (patriotism and addressing legitimate concerns about immigration get more bandwidth)

But these ideas have all been explored more persuasively elsewhere.

In short, the analysis is shallow, ahistorical and psychologistic. It ignores power relationships (especially economic power) and is completely silent about the role of the press in creating division.

Clearly the left has nothing to learn which explains its electoral success these past years. I sometimes think the left enjoy losing and I say that out of sorrow rather than glee.
 
it does not address the issue we currently have in the UK of being in the power of party with an agenda to exploit authoritarianism for political gain, a party that is deliberately narrowing national identity, curtailing discussion of difficult issues and exploiting, stoking and providing shelter for authoritarian fears.

I agree that she doesn't provide a guide for dealing with a political party determined to exploit authoritarianism, but she does mention some things that the opposition should NOT do, such as
- continuing to try to persuade/teach/lecture the authoritarian-predisposed of their errors.
- Draw attention to their policy efforts or manifesto pledges that might trigger authoritarians (while continuing to work on those areas).
- Highlight how immigrants and minority groups are helping society in non-controversial areas (e.g. immigrants staffing the NHS during COVID)

In short avoid getting publicly embroiled in the culture war because it will drive voters to the authoritarian party.
 
Clearly the left has nothing to learn which explains its electoral success these past years. I sometimes think the left enjoy losing and I say that out of sorrow rather than glee.
but surely the overriding point from Sternner is that is not a left/right issue
 
Conservativism is a bulwark against authoritarianism (what, actually existing conservativism?)
Conservatives and liberals are natural allies against authoritarianism (what, actually existing liberals?)

I thought she was pretty clear that by conservatives she was using the word in it traditional sense - those who oppose change. They help to reduce the rate of change in a society which helps to prevent the triggering of the authoritarian predisposed.

"Superwoke" is a variety of left-wing authoritarianism (neglects power relations)

I took this to mean that if you wish to impose your political beliefs on others without their consent then you are behaving in an authoritarian manner. In this respect we see this tendency from both the (extremes of ) left and the right. The right wing parties in the US and UK, with the help of certain media outlets have successfully weaponized this, but that does not mean that it doesn't exist on the left.

It's our responsibility to help those people to make peace with "liberal democracy" (how liberal and democratic are we?)

Again, different interpretation. My take away was, however you feel about these people you will never win them over by provoking them, and if you try to fight them they will only dig in deeper.

Diversity and complexity is overwhelming to some people (but not us sensible liberal types, oh no)

My interpretation - they may be overwhelming to us "sensible liberal types", but they don't provoke feelings of fear and insecurity that make us want to vote for a strongman.

If you're in favour of diversity you should stop "banging on about it". Create a feeling of "oneness and sameness". (don't be too "uppity")
Absolutely - how's that culture war working out for the left ?

The left needs to get over its wariness of patriotism (yeah, that's worked well so far, hasn't it)
We need to recognize that many in society derive great comfort from a sense of shared identity.

Steady as she goes - make politics boring again (What like successful politicians like Trump, Farage, Johnson?)

No - like Biden.

In short, the analysis is shallow, ahistorical and psychologistic. It ignores power relationships (especially economic power) and is completely silent about the role of the press in creating division.

Agree about ignoring the role of the press - but what can an out of power left wing do about the press ? Little but change their own message IMO.

Frankly I'm surprised at your incredibly hostile response - it gives the impression that you listened with a determination to find fault because of prior knowledge of the presenter and guest. If you have much better information I think you should share some links yourself.
 
but surely the overriding point from Sternner is that is not a left/right issue

It is at the moment, because the Conservatives and GOP have weaponized this psychology. The left must learn how to deal with it (by not continuing to provoke the authoritarian voters).
 
Further Conservative authoritarianism here in a redrawing of the official secrets act with no ‘public interest’ defence (BBC). Yet another step towards an all-powerful one-party state with zero tolerance for whistle-blowers.
 


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