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Audio Myths..the cartridge

Dowser said:
Not fair - text only :)

Mine is a McKinnie RO III - local Swiss product by an engineer that used to work for John Curl - it's a clone of his Vendetta SCP design, and very nice it is too. I need to recap it at some point I suppose, but it sounds excellent as is. Design is also JFET based, the originator of yours probably :)

I built a DIY SUT based on Beyer Dynamics xers that I was using previously - it was very good already, but after reselling an earlier McKinnie I got as part of a turntable purchase without listening to it (and before realising what it really was), I took a punt on this when it came up - very glad I did.

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Richard
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As the subject of head amps has come up I hope I can be allowed the indulgence of pointing out that I do actually make an up market head amp (and very good it is if I say so myself :D). There's a bit of a limited market though judging by the zero interest it seems to have had since it was announced a few months ago!
 
As I have been out of the analog world for quite sometime now, where would a high output MC such as the Dynavector 10X5 fit into all this business? Not to get things off track. Tim
 
Well, I is have a very nice sounding set up and it's definitely a system issue as to why.

Cartridge matches arm.. Arm matches deck, all suit my new crafted phono stage (Supreme) and the preamp / power amp get out of the way enough to let my old skool KEF reference speakers let it all come out as a seriously happy sound.

So, when will this debate get to how good a Sonotone 9TA HC is or the Acos GP104 ?

I think we should be told....
 
Jo 90 said:
So, when will this debate get to how good a Sonotone 9TA HC is or the Acos GP104 ?

I think we should be told....
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Well, the Acos GP104 fitted to my Hacker Grenadier GP45 was awful. I spent the early years of my childhood wondering why some records just sounded plain weird when played on my record player - one of the channels was dead...

Can't remember what I levered in there in its stead when I was old and wise enough to figure out what the problem was, but the fact that it had both channels was a vast improvement...
 
Tony L said:
I've gone the other way! Over the years I've run a whole raft of nice MCs (AT OC9, Lyra Lydian B, Dynavector XX1L. MC25FL, AT33 PTG, DL103 etc etc) and I had an itch to go back to an MM so I'm currently using a 2M Black. Now it's correctly loaded I really love it; a big open clear and solid sound and it tracks anything beautifully and cleanly right to the end of side. When it wears out I'll just buy a new stylus.
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Considering a 2M Bronze I wonder if this loading is an issue using a Rega or Naim phonostage ?

No way I'm technically minded
 
more than happy to swap anyones high end skeletal sounding MC for an at95e if they wish, I would not want anyone to listen to needlessly inferior sound if I can help out.

Rgds
Stuart
( skeletal sounding MC's all the way for me )
 
Dowser said:
Mine is a McKinnie RO III - local Swiss product by an engineer that used to work for John Curl - it's a clone of his Vendetta SCP design, and very nice it is too. I need to recap it at some point I suppose, but it sounds excellent as is. Design is also JFET based, the originator of yours probably :)

Richard
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Verry nice! :)

Andy
 
Good thread. Makes me think back to the 80's, when a few goofy bastards started to question if solid state amps really were better than tubes. Since then all manner of audio devices have become more widely appreciated. I'm not a fan of "this is better than that" and I don't think it applies here. Moving magnets have something special to offer and their general acceptance as being inferior to moving coils is probably directly related to their price being considerably less. If they become riduculously expensive they will also become more widely coveted.
 
boegelund said:
Considering a 2M Bronze I wonder if this loading is an issue using a Rega or Naim phonostage ?

No way I'm technically minded
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IIRC both are around 220pf @ 47k.

By the time you add the tonearm cable capacitance of around 100pf that's too high and you get a treble peak where it's audible as tizz around 12khz. If you like that, fine, if not you need to get the total down closer to 200pf and ideally drop the impedance into the 37-39k region.
That pushes the peaking higher in frequency where it's far less audible and flattens it down considerably.

Same loading for Black and Bronze.
 
boegelund said:
Considering a 2M Bronze I wonder if this loading is an issue using a Rega or Naim phonostage ?
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No idea about either of those phono stages but the 2M does need to see between 150-300pf, and that's total capacitance, i.e. arm lead and phono stage. Go above that and it starts to grow a spike around 8-10K that can sound pretty horrible and explains why some folk think it's a bright sounding cart (it isn't, it's smooth, clean and superbly balanced).

PS for clarity: I'm talking about the Black, I've never heard a Bronze, but the loading is identical (exactly the same body) so I'd expect the same results.
 
Robert said:
IIRC both are around 220pf @ 47k.

By the time you add the tonearm cable capacitance of around 100pf that's too high and you get a treble peak where it's audible as tizz around 12khz. If you like that, fine, if not you need to get the total down closer to 200pf and ideally drop the impedance into the 37-39k region.
That pushes the peaking higher in frequency where it's far less audible and flattens it down considerably.

Same loading for Black and Bronze.
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Interesting Rob

Would there be any "easy" settlement if the mentioned peak become obviously ?
No inside modifications please as I like to keep gear original and TBH I haven't the slightest idea and knowledge about the electronics
 
boegelund said:
Interesting Rob

Would there be any "easy" settlement if the mentioned peak become obviously ?
No inside modifications please as I like to keep gear original and TBH I haven't the slightest idea and knowledge about the electronics
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Can I suggest you buy a MM phono stage which offers you adjustment of these parameters ('R' load & 'C' load). IMO, the ideal situation is to have:
* a low capacitance (say, 100pF) on the PCB, at the input, in conjunction with the standard 47K load resistor.
* 2 additional parallel pairs of RCA sockets, to take "loading plugs" (1 for 'C', the other for 'R').

The 100pF on the board plus the cable capacitance, as Robert says, will deliver about 200pF and adding a 150K resistor in parallel with the stock 47K will deliver a total load of about 37K.

If a new phono stage is not possible (and what you have has no adjustment capabilities) then perhaps a tech could replace your input cap with a 100pF cap ... and you could use some T-connectors on your input RCAs to give you the ability to change 'R' loading.


Regards,

Andy
 
Tony L said:
No idea about either of those phono stages but the 2M does need to see between 150-300pf, and that's total capacitance, i.e. arm lead and phono stage. Go above that and it starts to grow a spike around 8-10K that can sound pretty horrible and explains why some folk think it's a bright sounding cart (it isn't, it's smooth, clean and superbly balanced).
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Goldrings need this loading too. Unfortunately these high input capacitance phono stages were optimised for Shure
 
Recently made an Arkless 640P for a customer using one of these Ortofon cartridges and set it to only 50pF + 100K internally so that the total could then be set to the optimum value by loading plugs. It seems odd that Ortofon have made a cartridge that can only give its best with unorthodox loading... if they did it 'cos thats the only way of REALLY getting the best out of the generator though then that's ok with me!
 
Arkless Repairs said:
It seems odd that Ortofon have made a cartridge that can only give its best with unorthodox loading... if they did it 'cos thats the only way of REALLY getting the best out of the generator though then that's ok with me!
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Not sure about Ortofon, but Goldring seem to be chasing higher and higher output levels. The easist way to do this is more turns and/or higher permeability and therefore higher inductance (which means reducing the load capacitanc). Is this another louder=better marketing race?
 
boegelund said:
Interesting Rob

Would there be any "easy" settlement if the mentioned peak become obviously ?
No inside modifications please as I like to keep gear original and TBH I haven't the slightest idea and knowledge about the electronics
Click to expand...

Sadly you can't reduce capacitance below what's been fitted as stock.
However it would simply involve replacing one tiny capacitor at the input to the circuit and is entirely reversible by anyone able to solder. Same for the impedance which is just one resistor, but that's not so important so you could skip that.

TBH if you ever sold the stage you'd be helping the next user, since taking the input capacitance down to say 100pf would make it work better with most cartridges.

If you know someone able to solder I can send you the parts. No cost, they cost me pennies in bulk packs.
 
The "best" value of input RF filter capacitor has reduced over the years. In the 70s the main problem was ham and CB in the HF, so designers used as large a value of (leaded) capacitor that they could. These days GSM phones are the main problem (high UHF) and 100pF SMD is effective. The traditional single layered board with jumper links is a disaster at UHF frequencies
 
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