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Audio Myths..the cartridge

I think this debate can settled empirically and logically .

Hifi is a subjective pastime . Assessment of quality rests with the individual . Subjectively more individuals report a preference for Moving coils . Thus moving coils are better . Thus this is a subjective fact , not a myth.

debate settled .
 
Tony L said:
Much is about priorities IMO. If you value tracking / tracing ability and absolutely minimal end-of-side distortion you'd have to spend an extraordinary amount on an MC to match something like a 2M Black, AT150MLX or equivalent high-compliance MM fitted with a really nice high-tech high-spec tip profile. I'm now pretty much convinced this level of tracking / tracing is just not possible with a bog-standard elliptical tip and low-compliance generator as fitted to so many of the sub £1k MCs.
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I have a Benz ACE SL with a Micro Ridge stylus. It wasn't *that* expensive and tracks and traces just fine..
 
pure sound said:
I'm currently borrowing this Tannoy which curiously needs to be used into a high impedance MC stage to give decent s/n although I don't think it is an MC. Shame it never went into full production as it sounds charming.

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What strange arm is that ... with a wooden headshell and no slots for the bolts?

Are you sure the bolt-hole-to-stylus distance for this Tannoy cart is the same as what the arm was designed for ... or does the arm have an effective-length adjustment at the pivot end?

Regards,

Andy
 
Joe Hutch said:
So by your logic, The Daily Mail is better than The Guardian?
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Nope , cause you cant legitimately extend the logic to opinions about the world , cause these can not be left to subjective individual assessment , where all opinions are equally valid . In opinions about the world you can talk shite .

This does not apply to a piece of hifi equipment cause all that matters is your opinion , it is truly a solipsistic experience were all that matters is you and your opinion which you can share but cannot by definition be wrong .
 
Gerald said:
Nope , cause you cant legitimately extend the logic to opinions about the world , cause these can not be left to subjective individual assessment , where all opinions are equally valid . In opinions about the world you can talk shite .
Click to expand...

So who gets to decide what is the 'correct' opinion about the world?

Back on topic, I'm again listening to music via an MC cartridge (Bizet Symphony in C, Neville Marriner/ASMF) and cannot recognise any of the ills that, according to the OP, plague MC cartridges.
 
A lot of the different sounds described here are capacitance matching/loading and system synergy. There are few comparisons done under correct level equalisation and lab conditions.

It can become much hearsay as a result. Many styli on expensive MC are just that more refined than cheaper MM or MI designs.Lesser sales of top price MC mean higher expectation and diminishing returns. Is it an apple and pears comparison in many instances?

Interesting with Rega. SME thought the movement of all this heavy arm/moving coil thing a retrograde step at the time. As a business they had to follow the money. Many enthusists are still following the fashion. The price was upped with MC cartridge. Linn helped it along nicely and most followed. This is a business and it is not always the customer who sets the prices and trends.
Moving Coil gaurantees nothing. Cartridges are subjective sounding and need system matched.
Lots of enthusists have heavy arms so are kind of stuck on the appropriate cartridges for them anyway. Not to criticise of course........who can pick a heavy arm out on a double blind test?
There are no truths of sound here........you take your choice and there is much to choose.
 
andyr said:
What strange arm is that ... with a wooden headshell and no slots for the bolts?

Are you sure the bolt-hole-to-stylus distance for this Tannoy cart is the same as what the arm was designed for ... or does the arm have an effective-length adjustment at the pivot end?

Regards,

Andy
Click to expand...

On my moinitor I can see what look like slots allowing a minor degree of backwards forwards movements .
 
andyr said:
What strange arm is that ... with a wooden headshell and no slots for the bolts?

Are you sure the bolt-hole-to-stylus distance for this Tannoy cart is the same as what the arm was designed for ... or does the arm have an effective-length adjustment at the pivot end?

Regards,

Andy
Click to expand...

There are slots. 9-10mm long. Arm is a Jelco 750L
 
Think Bub has given up slagging off this thread as boring; I thought he had more stamina !:D

This thread IS an interesting hypothesis. I think many of us have started with magnets and progressed to coils over our audiophile lives. I certainly have, and it has never occurred to me that I might get as much immersion in the music from my old V15s as I now do from my Urushi, or indeed the m/coils before that.

A point not yet mentioned, though, is that for the vast majority of coils (VdH excepted) you need AT LEAST a medium mass arm, whereas for the higher compliance magnets 11 or 12 grammes eff. mass would be a bit heavy.

Apart from the phono stage requirements, it would otherwise be easy and relatively cheap to experiment, I'd have thought, assuming that you have the commitment to 'revert'. I don't, even though I have an old VMS20 lying around.
 
pure sound said:
In absolute terms I prefer my favourite MC designs. However there are a lot of poor MC cartridges around and there are some MM or MI designs that can give very enjoyable results.

I'm currently borrowing this Tannoy which curiously needs to be used into a high impedance MC stage to give decent s/n although I don't think it is an MC. Shame it never went into full production as it sounds charming.

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So Tannoy were planning an mc cartridge? First I've ever heard of that. Wonder who made it for them....probably a Japanese supplier.
The thing is, people compare good moving coils with rather average, and cheaper, moving magnets. Stuff like moving iron technology has a lot of unexplored potential...but the 'grip' of mc cartridges is so strong that no-one will spend serious cash on alternative research.
 
I don't think it is an MC. It shares some things in common with their Vari-Twin which was a variable reluctance type but this one was a prototype for a different model.
Like the Vari-Twin it would have been made in the UK.
 
pure sound said:
I don't think it is an MC. It shares some things in common with their Vari-Twin which was a variable reluctance type but this one was a prototype for a different model.
Like the Vari-Twin it would have been made in the UK.
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Never heard of the vari-twin. Must Google. You learn something new every day.
 
Chefren said:
I have a Benz ACE SL with a Micro Ridge stylus. It wasn't *that* expensive and tracks and traces just fine..
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There are exceptions to the general rule, that's possibly one especially as it carries a very fine stylus and has medium compliance.

Ditto things like the Audio Technica AR33PTG, OC9 and Goldring Elite which all possess medium compliance and very nice styli.

However as a rule MCs tend to be low compliance and many carry elliptical or quite fat profile line contact styli, and that does impact tracing and tracking respectively.
 
davidsrsb said:
Higher output MCs require a different SUT with smaller turns ratio, not the usual 20:1, this giving a much higher load resistance. 5:1 would give a 2k loading

Loading a high output MC with 100R seems to cause core saturation compression
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I usually set the secondary loading if using a SUT to give a specific load on the primary. Though TBH I find MC loading a bit overplayed and it seldom matters in practice unless going to extremes, specifically using a very low impedance <50 ohms or so. Very low impedance loading can impact bass quality/presentation likely due to damping in much the same way as amplifier impedance impacts a loudspeaker. I find most things happy into 500 Ohms or higher.
 
davidsrsb said:
Nothing in it in theory, MMs have roughly 10x output voltage and 100x winding resistance. Johnson noise is SQRT(4kTBR) so the noise voltage from MM is also 10x higher. This means that preamplifiers with the same nose figure from either type will give the same signal to noise ration.
In practice it is harder to make a low noise amplifier for MC source resistances, most opamps are hopeless
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Indeed. Well spotted! As you say though it is much more difficult to make a suitably low noise amplifier for MC's.... Impossible in fact... hence MM's have the noise advantage. SUT's can of course equal things out but IMHO a good active step up sounds a lot better!
 
Arkless Repairs said:
Indeed. Well spotted! As you say though it is much more difficult to make a suitably low noise amplifier for MC's.... Impossible in fact... hence MM's have the noise advantage. SUT's can of course equal things out but IMHO a good active step up sounds a lot better!
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In practice it doesn't matter beyond a certain point given the noise floor from LP.

The phono stage in the Pioneer SA-9800 built in 1979 sitting on my shelf at the moment would make most designers weep if they experienced it's phono stage spec. It's MM stage when loaded is actually quieter than many line stages!
When I first switched to phono on the selector I thought the amp was broken, given just the faintest hiss with the gain turned to max, and no hum.
MC not far behind.

Where it might matter is with very low output MCs such a AN, but they use and recommend good SUTs as parterres for good reason.
 
Robert said:
In practice it doesn't matter beyond a certain point given the noise floor from LP.

The phono stage in the Pioneer SA-9800 built in 1979 sitting on my shelf at the moment would make most designers weep if they experienced it's phono stage spec. It's MM stage when loaded is actually quieter than many line stages!
MC not far behind.

Where it might matter is with very low output MCs such a AN, but they use and recommend good SUTs as parterres for good reason.
Click to expand...

Perfectly true. Sometimes experiments with prototype MC stages have been saved by this!

Coincidently I happened to look at the circuit diagrams for the SA-9800 just a couple of days ago and I was surprised and impressed to say the least! Most of the circuit techniques would still be regarded as bang up to date for high end stuff today....
 
Arkless Repairs said:
Perfectly true. Sometimes experiments with prototype MC stages have been saved by this!

Coincidently I happened to look at the circuit diagrams for the SA-9800 just a couple of days ago and I was surprised and impressed to say the least! Most of the circuit techniques would still be regarded as bang up to date for high end stuff today....
Click to expand...

I was genuinely gobsmacked - where the fcuk is the noise!
Then again if it were made today that thing would be into serious Accuphase money.
 
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