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Audio Myths..the cartridge

One of few interesting threads for a while. Ta Paskinn, as long as we can keep away from 'look at my knob' or defensive 'my choices are best' ****wit contributions it will be really helpful. (albeit rather dull) I use expensive MC but haven't really examined this choice and welcome the challenge.
 
I have just fitted an AT50ANV and I am in wonderment at what it does. It is a very low output MC and it is the source of all light and understanding and fire. All my record collection is renewed. Everything I listen to, it's like I'm 12 and I just bought a single from Woolworths and rushed home to play it.

So now I am a flattie. Source first. I'll just get some speakers for £50 off ebay and be done with it - I don't care anymore. Speakers, amps, it's all a waste of money. Just blow it all on some MC jewellery.

On the other hand...Tom Fletcher was and Glenn Croft is an MM evangelist. They are probably my all time hi-fi heroes and they can't be wrong.

Either / Or
 
Robert said:
The last manufacturer to do this was Technics, culminating in the some stunning IM designs. Considerably ahead of any MM/IM design available today IMO.
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Hi Robert,

Can you suggest any (presumably vintage?) Technics IM carts I should look out for? And I presume these are HO?


Thanks,

Andy
 
Interesting thread. If it's still permitted to link to other fora, there's a thread on the Vinyl Engine forum where someone has kindly scanned a Hifi News cartridge test from 1984.

You need to be registered on the site to download the file, but to whet your appetite, an AT-160 has the best set of measurements there, and there's a Koetsu on test too.
 
andyr said:
Hi Robert,

Can you suggest any (presumably vintage?) Technics IM carts I should look out for? And I presume these are HO?


Thanks,

Andy
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Technics 205c Mk III or IV were great. Hard to come by OEM replacement styli, but I think Jico make SAS replacements.
 
Arkless Repairs said:
MM still has a big advantage in noise terms. Only the resistive portion of the total impedance can generate Johnson noise remember..... It's about the only advantage MM's have!
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Nothing in it in theory, MMs have roughly 10x output voltage and 100x winding resistance. Johnson noise is SQRT(4kTBR) so the noise voltage from MM is also 10x higher. This means that preamplifiers with the same nose figure from either type will give the same signal to noise ration.
In practice it is harder to make a low noise amplifier for MC source resistances, most opamps are hopeless
 
davidsrsb said:
Nothing in it in theory, MMs have roughly 10x output voltage and 100x winding resistance. Johnson noise is SQRT(4kTBR) so the noise voltage from MM is also 10x higher. This means that preamplifiers with the same nose figure from either type will give the same signal to noise ration.
In practice it is harder to make a low noise amplifier for MC source resistances, most opamps are hopeless
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Yes, parallel low noise transistors on the input, or be a devil and use a SUT :)
I quite like SUTs where the cartridge has extremely low impedance.
On MCs with more windings and healthy output I find SUTs can slug the sound and make things a bit flat.

topoxforddoc said:
Technics 205c Mk III or IV were great. Hard to come by OEM replacement styli, but I think Jico make SAS replacements.
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Or the range topping EPC100C which still holds the record for lowest tip mass after all these years.
I think cartridge design has actually been in reverse since these high watermark points. Market is too small to for this sort of innovation and R&D.
 
Robert said:
I quite like SUTs where the cartridge has extremely low impedance.
On MCs with more windings and healthy output I find SUTs can slug the sound and make things a bit flat
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Higher output MCs require a different SUT with smaller turns ratio, not the usual 20:1, this giving a much higher load resistance. 5:1 would give a 2k loading

Loading a high output MC with 100R seems to cause core saturation compression
 
I think the OP is making a sweeping generalization.

Its all about synergy and optimizing the complete setup.

EDIT: but personally I do feel that MC's are more demanding of the SUT/Phono stage, and thus is harder and more expensive overall to realise their full potential. Whilst MMs are mostly easier to get the most out of. Whether the cost/hassle is worth it, is entirely up to the individual -IMHO.
 
I have always found MMs to have limited high frequency detail compared to MCs. In my low spec garage system things always sounded great, but moving the cart into the main system highlighted limitations.

I don't have much experience with MMs though - various Shure M75s being amongst the best, with absolute best being a Corus Blue. I couldn't get it to sound good with an RB250 on my LP12, but moving to a 774 arm and trying again was a good comparison between a DL110 and the Corus (see here). I remember finding the midrange to be much more authorative compared to the DL110, but with a lack of detail at higher frequencies. All fed into a Croft MM stage (which I had doubts about matching the DL110 that well).

However, I then swapped to an Asaka feeding DIY'ed Naim MC cards which just blew everything before away. Then used SUTs to feed the Croft stage again for another big increase in SQ, and recently to a decent head-amp to replace the SUTs (better than the SUTs, dead silent!).

I don't think I'd ever bolt an MM to my 774 again :)

Richard
 
I started off with MM and have tried Ortofon VMS20E, Shure V15, Pickering with its little toothbrush, Nagaoka MP11, Linn K9 are the ones I remember.

My first experiments at the low end of MC include an AT F3 and an entry point blue plastic Ortofon whose model I can't quite remember, both HOMCs. Whilst these experiments appeared to be going in the right direction I was not totallly convinced. Better air, detail but nowhere near the energy of the Linn K9.

Then along came an AT OC9 which for me was a revelation - a huge jump from all I had tried.

Since then I went to a Benz Micro Glider+ Koetsu Black both of which need re-tipping, and now I am currently using a Dynavector Karat 17D3 and I cannot go back to MM!

I have just acquired a Koetsu Urushi which is awaiting to be mounted but I still have the AT OC9 stored away for prosperity!
 
Great thread and worth pointing out that Paskinn's point is exactly the reason why Rega didn't make an MC for over 30 years. Roy felt that MC's robbed the music of its vitality. When they first started looking into making their own as they felt they could no longer ignore the commercial imperative to produce one, I remember hearing the first, very rough proto-type with its massive channel imbalance and high noise. It was astonishing and still in some ways the best cartridge I ever heard! However, as it had no tie wire (unique, I think unless someone can correct me?) it had a rising top end which could be rather unpalatable. Rather than compromise the main design element they decided that the way to go was to ensure that their phono stage could be specifically tailored to accommodate that. As a result it's unique in trying to do what it does.

I understand the OP's point here anyway. MC's do have loads more detail and subtlety. However, I've recently switched from a Dynavector XX2 to an old, barely used Nagaoka MP11 boron. It would be a huge stretch to suggest the MM is as good - the DV's a great cart. But... it has every quality that Paskinn mentions at the start of this thread and I'm more than happy with the way in which it communicated the essence of the music. In that sense it's absolutely the DV's equal. Come to think of it, I don't ever remember feeling dissatisfied with my Linn K9 or Stilton TS11 back in the day, either.
 
When I first switched to a moving coil cartridge (a mid priced Ortofon), I was gobsmacked by the amount of detail and openness the cartridge appeared to have, I later found out that is was actually caused by a rising treble response which is typical of most moving coil cartridges. I still liked it though.

Having read quite a few technical reviews of moving coil cartridges I also see that in addition to a rising treble response they also seem to exhibit slightly higher distortion (mainly second harmonic) and the majority of MC’s don’t seem to track quite as well as the better Moving Magnets that are fitted with a good fine line type stylus. Also, Most modern competent MM’s will easily reproduce signals beyond 20Khz and the fine line stylus means that miss-tracking of the inner grooves or end of side distortion is no longer an issue.

I use an Ortofon MC30 Super II fitted to my LP12/Ittok and an Ortofon 2M Bronze fitted to my stock standard Techie SL1200. The 2M sounds wonderful and its nude fine line stylus is able to track all of my most torturous heavily modulated grooves that would challenge the MC30. At the end of the day the MC30 super II sounds a little sweeter but I am sure it is because of the slightly rose coloured rendition of the music that it presents.

As it has already been said, a good moving magnet can sound and measure extremely well, but as vinyl is an analogue medium and is subject to the complexities and vagaries of resonances, microphonics and mechanical – electrical interaction the final result will very rarely be easily defined or simply cut and dried, and I suppose that is why we like our vinyl so much.

LPSpinner.
 
LPSpinner said:
I use an Ortofon MC30 Super II fitted to my LP12/Ittok and an Ortofon 2M Bronze fitted to my stock standard Techie SL1200. The 2M sounds wonderful and its nude fine line stylus is able to track all of my most torturous heavily modulated grooves that would challenge the MC30. At the end of the day the MC30 super II sounds a little sweeter but I am sure it is because of the slightly rose coloured rendition of the music that it presents.
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Much is about priorities IMO. If you value tracking / tracing ability and absolutely minimal end-of-side distortion you'd have to spend an extraordinary amount on an MC to match something like a 2M Black, AT150MLX or equivalent high-compliance MM fitted with a really nice high-tech high-spec tip profile. I'm now pretty much convinced this level of tracking / tracing is just not possible with a bog-standard elliptical tip and low-compliance generator as fitted to so many of the sub £1k MCs.
 
Dowser said:
Then used SUTs to feed the Croft stage again for another big increase in SQ, and recently to a decent head-amp to replace the SUTs (better than the SUTs, dead silent!).

Richard
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I'm a great fan of battery-powered ss head amps instead of SUTs, Richard - both for increased resolution and dead quietness.

If I show you mine will you show me yours? ;) Mine is the AKSA 'Paris' - see here (and scroll down):
http://www.aksaonline.com/products/products.html

I took it across to a mate of mine's place who (against my advice) had just bought a Slee 'Elevator' ... and he was sad to hear that it absolutely killed it! :eek:


Regards,

Andy
 
andyr said:
I'm a great fan of battery-powered ss head amps instead of SUTs, Richard - both for increased resolution and dead quietness.

If I show you mine will you show me yours? ;) Mine is the AKSA 'Paris' - see here (and scroll down):
http://www.aksaonline.com/products/products.html

I took it across to a mate of mine's place who (against my advice) had just bought a Slee 'Elevator' ... and he was sad to hear that it absolutely killed it! :eek:


Regards,

Andy
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Not fair - text only :)

Mine is a McKinnie RO III - local Swiss product by an engineer that used to work for John Curl - it's a clone of his Vendetta SCP design, and very nice it is too. I need to recap it at some point I suppose, but it sounds excellent as is. Design is also JFET based, the originator of yours probably :)

I built a DIY SUT based on Beyer Dynamics xers that I was using previously - it was very good already, but after reselling an earlier McKinnie I got as part of a turntable purchase without listening to it (and before realising what it really was), I took a punt on this when it came up - very glad I did.

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9705635727_84235cdd45_o.png


Richard
 
In absolute terms I prefer my favourite MC designs. However there are a lot of poor MC cartridges around and there are some MM or MI designs that can give very enjoyable results.

I'm currently borrowing this Tannoy which curiously needs to be used into a high impedance MC stage to give decent s/n although I don't think it is an MC. Shame it never went into full production as it sounds charming.

 
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