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Audio Myths..the cartridge

Surely there are too many variables to make generalisations as to what is better. We have Cart to arm matching, then cart to phono amp/stage matching and loading. I would assume it's much more critical to get those right with MC... With more chance to get it wrong and have a disappointing performance.

Many years back I use to use a Ittok and K18, got offered an Asaka, wasn't that it impressed it was dull soft and lacked bite and involvement. I then moved to Ekos2, where the K18 came even more alive..... compared to the Asaka...
I then got rid of the Asaka and moved to a Troika... Which was much better....

The Troika then got replaced by a Lyra Evolve99 (special version of the Clavis DC) .... which blew away the Troika gave much more bite and drive to the music... had some of that K18 blood and guts ;)..... I still have it and it will need replacement soon I guess, don't see going back to a MM though... another Lyra MC will be the order of the day.
 
This is a bit of an artificial question. One should always look at the combination of cart/arm and phono stage. They work together and hence to say that one sort of cart is better than another is missing the point. The movements of the stylus tip are tiny in the groove. The cantilever mustn’t flex and the suspension must be supple enough not to introduce extra forces. The movement of the cart can be affected/drowned out by resonance in the arm tube/bearing.

The actual type of generator assembly, although important, takes second place to the stability of the cantilever suspension point relative to the spinning groove.

I’m lucky enough to have a pretty decent TT (Platine Verdier) with two arms - a Schroeder Model 2 and Allaerts MC1B (probably £5.5k now at current exchange rates with a long wait) and an AO rewired 70s vintage Hadcock 228 with a 60s John Wright rebuilt Decca C4E. Both carts feed into separate high end TRON phono stages (On board TRON Meteor MC phono for the Allaerts and a TRON Seven Reference for the Decca). So I can switch from one to another, whilst both carts are tracking the same record. The choice about which one is better is unanimous amongst myself and several other hi-fi aficianado friends.

 
Vastly prefer MC here. Also don't agree with idea of systems being able to make the sound but not play music as alluded to by the OP and mentioned many times by others elsewhere....
 
The best mc carts are superior to the best mm in every specification but one- maximum output level. Now the op can push for whichever standard he prefers as a matter of taste and personal choice but he cannot escape the fact that mc is a technically superior solution.
 
paskinn said:
The issue isn't my friend..who has heard an awful lot more cartridges than most people (so, in truth, have I...I think)..
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The problem with your experience is that you are using up-to-the-minute 1930s loudspeakers, which were pretty darn crappy when they were new in 1938, and which the passage of time has not improved any.
 
9designs said:
Surely there are too many variables to make generalisations as to what is better. We have Cart to arm matching, then cart to phono amp/stage matching and loading. I would assume it's much more critical to get those right with MC... With more chance to get it wrong and have a disappointing performance.

Many years back I use to use a Ittok and K18, got offered an Asaka, wasn't that it impressed it was dull soft and lacked bite and involvement. I then moved to Ekos2, where the K18 came even more alive..... compared to the Asaka...
I then got rid of the Asaka and moved to a Troika... Which was much better....

The Troika then got replaced by a Lyra Evolve99 (special version of the Clavis DC) .... which blew away the Troika gave much more bite and drive to the music... had some of that K18 blood and guts ;)..... I still have it and it will need replacement soon I guess, don't see going back to a MM though... another Lyra MC will be the order of the day.
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No, it really is that simple. MC's are better.

Well, I'm sure there are some fantastic MM's out there...haven't heard the weird ones from some of the weirder companies like Soundsmith (Holy Mackerel do they do a fine rebuild though) but generally speaking it's like this:

MC's are to MM's as

"50 day aged Wagu Beef Rib Steaks" are to "Fast Food Burgers".

So, yes, if you burn the former the latter will sound better. Or something like that.
 
Has anyone got a Moving Magnet that extends it's FR past 15khz out of interest?
 
topoxforddoc said:
This is a bit of an artificial question. actual type of generator assembly, although important, takes second place to the stability of the cantilever suspension point relative to the spinning groove.

I’m lucky enough to have a pretty decent TT (Platine Verdier) with two arms - a Schroeder Model 2 and Allaerts MC1B (probably £5.5k now at current exchange rates with a long wait) and an AO rewired 70s vintage Hadcock 228 with a 60s John Wright rebuilt Decca C4E. Both carts feed into separate high end TRON phono stages (On board TRON Meteor MC phono for the Allaerts and a TRON Seven Reference for the Decca). So I can switch from one to another, whilst both carts are tracking the same record. The choice about which one is better is unanimous amongst myself and several other hi-fi aficianado friends.

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Nice stuff; but here's the issue. I and some friends have made comparisons using some very exotic kit, (not mine!) and with cartridges up to £11,000. Some of us ended this preferring , as a general position, good moving magnets. Some didn't.
But so what...it's just opinions, some experienced, some not, some based on very pricey gear, some on good but basic gear. My sole point is that it's possible to disagree and listing really fine equipment doesn't eliminate the possibility of healthy disagreement. This is about preferences, not facts. Or at least I think it is...it must be about something or other.
 
paskinn said:
Nice stuff; but here's the issue. I and some friends have made comparisons using some of the most expensive turntable ever made, (not mine!) and with cartridges up to £11,000. Some of us ended this preferring , as a general position, good moving magnets. Some didn't.
But so what...it's just opinions, some experienced, some not, some based on very pricey gear, some on good but basic gear. My sole point is that it's possible to disagree and listing really fine equipment doesn't eliminate the possibility of healthy disagreement. This is about preferences, not facts. Or at least I think it is...it must be about something or other.
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Did I say that I (and my friends) preferred the Allaerts? Um no. In fact, everyone without exception preferred my 60s vintage Decca C4E. I hardly play my Allaerts now (and no, it’s not knackered, as it has been rebuilt recently by Jan Allaerts himself).

Having been around this sort of thing since the late 70s, there are a lot of extremely fine MMs. I agree that the AKG P8ES, Technics 205 and the early ADCs were fabulous sounding carts.
 
I think...it's about attention-seeking...with pseudo-portentous, nay ominous...dot-dot-dots...in the post...seemingly...at.random.
 
The problem is that a cartridge is more than it's motor. MC is the superior motor - lower source impedance, greater linearity, no reliance on a tuned resonance to keep the HF response flat, no sensitivity to loading and greatly extended response. Which is fine but to fully realise these benefits you need a top class stylus and build in the other areas.

The high output of a MM/IM design isn't necessarily an advantage since in order to get this output the generator impedance is relatively much higher than with MC. This means more noise, so yes you get more mv into the phono stage but you also get more hiss compared to the 2-10 Ohms or so impedance from MC which effectively shorts the input to the phono stage.
To hear the effect of this, listen to a MM phono stage hiss with the system gain turned to max, then do the same after connecting a MC to the MM input - noise will drop dramatically.

Induced magnet designs such as the Grado and Decca sit halfway between the two - lower source impedance than MM but higher than MC, but low enough to potentially give a flat extended response way past 30khz. Someone just needs to take on this technology and build it right. The last manufacturer to do this was Technics, culminating in the some stunning IM designs. Considerably ahead of any MM/IM design available today IMO.
 
Robert said:
The problem is that a cartridge is more than it's motor. MC is the superior motor - lower source impedance, greater linearity, no reliance on a tuned resonance to keep the HF response flat, no sensitivity to loading and greatly extended response. Which is fine but to fully realise these benefits you need a top class stylus and build in the other areas.

The high output of a MM/IM design isn't necessarily an advantage since in order to get this output the generator impedance is relatively much higher than with MC. This means more noise, so yes you get more mv into the phono stage but you also get more hiss compared to to the 2-10 Ohms or so impedance from MC which effectively shorts the input to the phono stage.
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MM still has a big advantage in noise terms. Only the resistive portion of the total impedance can generate Johnson noise remember..... It's about the only advantage MM's have!
 
Well, later this week I will take my newly cleaned and inspected Urushi out of the box and install it in place of my old Shure , which I have greatly enjoyed while the Koetsu was getting a wash and brush-up.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned...the liberating feeling of not having to worry about the replacement cost if you bust your costly mc. Break the Shure and it's the price of a couple of evenings out, break a Koetsu and there are tears before bedtime
I don't know if Robert can write that into the technical specification.....
 
If you break your MC, you just send it back for repair, and in the meantime put your spare on. Not too difficult, is it? Am I missing something?

This is such a bad thread.
 
paskinn said:
But, and it's a big 'but', that extra detail tends to be achieved by a failure to properly reproduce the body and guts of music. Put simply, moving coils give a 'skeletal' version of the music, not the richness and texture of the real thing.
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You've never heard a Koetsu then, have you?
 
paskinn said:
Well, later this week I will take my newly cleaned and inspected Urushi out of the box and install it in place of my old Shure , which I have greatly enjoyed while the Koetsu was getting a wash and brush-up.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned...the liberating feeling of not having to worry about the replacement cost if you bust your costly mc. Break the Shure and it's the price of a couple of evenings out, break a Koetsu and there are tears before bedtime
I don't know if Robert can write that into the technical specification.....
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SFA factor - scaled 1-10.

1 being 'who cares' and 10 being 'pass the pills and vodka'

Stress From Accident :)
 
Yank said:
You've never heard a Koetsu then, have you?
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Only owned four of them. I still stand by my general assertion that moving magnets offer something few moving coils can. The traditional Koetsu under Sugano was really rich and warm , probably too rich really, but utterly lovely. Modern Koetsus are far less warm, and some of them are a little bright. 0f the moving coils I prefer koetsus and the great SPU, but I can live equally happily with a good non-mc. Audio is a broad church, with few absolutes.......
If there were absolutes, it would be rather boring wouldn't it? Change and debate is the very essence of the hobby.
 
paskinn said:
Only owned four of them. I still stand by my general assertion that moving magnets offer something few moving coils can. The traditional Koetsu under Sugano was really rich and warm , probably too rich really, but utterly lovely. Modern Koetsus are far less warm, and some of them are a little bright. 0f the moving coils I prefer koetsus and the great SPU, but I can live equally happily with a good non-mc. Audio is a broad church, with few absolutes.......
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Why buy very expensive MC cartridges in the first place, if you think MMs are better?

I wouldn't be seen dead with a Koetsu, but that's another boring bad-tempered thread, no doubt.
 
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