At last... (Audiolab) - part V
- Thread starter Mr Ian
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No its not. Every product is a compromise of specification (functions, features, performance) and cost.
This product is designed entirely for processing 2 channel digital streams. It's not designed for any streams with more than 2 channels.
Its usability has been fully thought through and this is the compromise that has been made.
What happens to an incoming multichannel signal and will the DAC try to incorrectly process it?
We don't know. I don't remember that being raised before, so a reply from John/Domink is needed for that
JohnW
pfm member
Hi Mr Ian,
If I'm not mistaken (I don't have a CDQ next to me), The ESS SPDIF decoder / DAC should Mute upon receiving "Non PCM Audio Data" so long as the Flag is set correctly within the SPDIF Data stream by the SPDIF source...
However, The ESS DAC is a "whole bag of hurt - it does not give us much love..." (Dominik’s words), so I'd not be too surprised if it did not decode and act upon the Flag correctly - But I'm pretty sure that it’s been implemented upon the ESS9018 that we are using in the CD/CDQ/DQ (it was NOT implemented upon the earlier generation ESS9006/9008). We have NO control over how the ESS DAC IC handles this Subcode information.
We have had no complaints (and I’m sure I’ve tested it in the past - I'm working on many designs) - but I will confirm ASAP for you.
John
If I'm not mistaken (I don't have a CDQ next to me), The ESS SPDIF decoder / DAC should Mute upon receiving "Non PCM Audio Data" so long as the Flag is set correctly within the SPDIF Data stream by the SPDIF source...
However, The ESS DAC is a "whole bag of hurt - it does not give us much love..." (Dominik’s words), so I'd not be too surprised if it did not decode and act upon the Flag correctly - But I'm pretty sure that it’s been implemented upon the ESS9018 that we are using in the CD/CDQ/DQ (it was NOT implemented upon the earlier generation ESS9006/9008). We have NO control over how the ESS DAC IC handles this Subcode information.
We have had no complaints (and I’m sure I’ve tested it in the past - I'm working on many designs) - but I will confirm ASAP for you.
John
Irrelevant unless and until content providers and the makers of source equipment ensure that they too set the appropriate flags correctly.
Chip designers generally work to the letter of the specification; bugs do occasionally creep through but because the cost of errors in chip hardware is high, the culture in that part of the industry is "get it right, first time".
Every dealer I visit has a different opinion.
I visited another dealer over lunch. He suggested that most modern speakers, even like my B&W CM9s dont really need dedicated pre and power amps at all, as they do not need a lot of power to run, so integrated units are normally well enough.
While he did stock audiolab, he was trying to point me towards a dedicated DAC and separate amp, eg North Star DAC... or an integrated NAIM thing.
Anyone care to weigh in about the need or not of power amps?
I visited another dealer over lunch. He suggested that most modern speakers, even like my B&W CM9s dont really need dedicated pre and power amps at all, as they do not need a lot of power to run, so integrated units are normally well enough.
While he did stock audiolab, he was trying to point me towards a dedicated DAC and separate amp, eg North Star DAC... or an integrated NAIM thing.
Anyone care to weigh in about the need or not of power amps?
'not needing a lot of power' isn't relevant, it's about sound quality per pound
Integrated amps contain a pre amp and a power amp (that's why they're 'integrated'). You always need a power amp to drive speakers, the question is - which one?
The CDQ effectivley contains 2 (alternative) preamps - providing digital gain or analogue gain stages.
So you don't need the preamp stage which is included in an integrated
ok
Up to you to choose the value for money and sound you want to hear.
Personally I'd always go for amps as close to the speakers as possible (or active - even closer) and hence I'd always go down the separate pre/power amp route.
But very lovely sounds can be made without doing this. There's no right or wrong here.
bottleneck
pfm Member
Hi Krlock.
I would reccomend starting a new thread encompassing =
. your existing equipment
. your budget
. what you want to achieve
you will get a host of different answers (of course), but its probably worthwhile if you're asking the question above.
Rather than starting a new thread, I will keep asking questions in this one, since the front runner I am close to buying is all audiolab gear and all my questions so far are in relation to Audiolab gear. Im just curious about whether you guys, who mostly know a lot more than me, would see the point of the dealer I talked to or not.
In fact, some months ago, I was lucky enough to hear a demo of some sonus faber amati futura speakers (about usd 30k) and about the same value of nagra tube amps etc.... by far the best sound I have ever heard from hi fi (I guess at that price, justifiably so). I do remember that dealer pointing to the wattage indicator on the nagras and saying how its only taking 5 watts or something.
Similarly so when I questioned why the Cyrus integrated amp can afford to live in such a small form factor compared to a CDQ with two monoblocks. This makes sense to me.
However, back to the audiolab, I have heard the 8200CDQ running through 8200P and balanced 8200MBs.... the MBs sounded really good to my ears, much better than the single P. So who knows. I guess in the end some equipment is designed to take advantage of these things and some do not need it.
edit: my speakers are bowers and wilkins CM9 floorstanders. I have heard one dealer say this is difficult to run, and another dealer say it is not difficult at all.
In fact, some months ago, I was lucky enough to hear a demo of some sonus faber amati futura speakers (about usd 30k) and about the same value of nagra tube amps etc.... by far the best sound I have ever heard from hi fi (I guess at that price, justifiably so). I do remember that dealer pointing to the wattage indicator on the nagras and saying how its only taking 5 watts or something.
Similarly so when I questioned why the Cyrus integrated amp can afford to live in such a small form factor compared to a CDQ with two monoblocks. This makes sense to me.
However, back to the audiolab, I have heard the 8200CDQ running through 8200P and balanced 8200MBs.... the MBs sounded really good to my ears, much better than the single P. So who knows. I guess in the end some equipment is designed to take advantage of these things and some do not need it.
edit: my speakers are bowers and wilkins CM9 floorstanders. I have heard one dealer say this is difficult to run, and another dealer say it is not difficult at all.
bottleneck
pfm Member
Hi
If I had £3k to spend (and owned b&w cm9 speakers) I would not personally buy audiolab monoblocks (£2k) and an audiolab cd player (circa £900ish)
If you have a laptop, the following integrated amp includes a DAC. It's a very powerful amplifier. At just over £900, it will be all your speakers need IME.
http://www.johnlewis.com/231038486/Product.aspx?source=63258
You can of course plug a laptop for example straight into it. It has several digital inputs, so of course you could watch your TV through it using optical too.
The amplifier even has some built in room equalisation, which is very unusual at this price point.
If I had £3k to spend (and owned b&w cm9 speakers) I would not personally buy audiolab monoblocks (£2k) and an audiolab cd player (circa £900ish)
If you have a laptop, the following integrated amp includes a DAC. It's a very powerful amplifier. At just over £900, it will be all your speakers need IME.
http://www.johnlewis.com/231038486/Product.aspx?source=63258
You can of course plug a laptop for example straight into it. It has several digital inputs, so of course you could watch your TV through it using optical too.
The amplifier even has some built in room equalisation, which is very unusual at this price point.
are you saying that because you think my cm9s are not worthy of the 8200CDQ and MBs?
Or are you saying that the 8200CDQ and MBs are overpriced and do not perform as well as the Harmon Kardon?
I also see no mention of what kind of DAX this HK has, nor any indication it will perform with 24-96 content etc.
I am confused.
I do have 3k to spend and certainly think there are better things to be achieved with this 3k than this HK you point out!!!
Or are you saying that the 8200CDQ and MBs are overpriced and do not perform as well as the Harmon Kardon?
I also see no mention of what kind of DAX this HK has, nor any indication it will perform with 24-96 content etc.
I am confused.
I do have 3k to spend and certainly think there are better things to be achieved with this 3k than this HK you point out!!!
bottleneck
pfm Member
Hi KR.
One of the reasons I suggested a new thread, was because I think it would help you to get a view of Audiolab amplifiers which is not ''inside'' an audiolab thread. Non-audiolab people don't really post in this thread.
My main point I would wish to get across without any kind of brand priority -
DAC differences in sound quality - such as the difference between (even) a PC soundcard and a .. £5,000 Wadia are small.
Amplifier differences, between a £100 Richer Sounds amp and £5,000 worth of amplification are rather large.
Greater still, money spent on loudspeakers. It's all ''important'' of course.. but if I had your money, your pocket, and your life (which I dont, so please forgive any arrogance) - amplification would be my priority in budget terms.
The HK amp offers a tremendous quality amplifier in terms of power and functionality - I would reccomend trying one at home.
The ''insides'' of the HK amp are what I would expect to see in £2-£3k of amplification. Don't be fooled by the price tag. There's a sleeping giant in there.
**edit**
I'm not trying to start a bun fight, just want the poster to try other amplification avenues. Please don't jump down my throat Audiolab people..!
One of the reasons I suggested a new thread, was because I think it would help you to get a view of Audiolab amplifiers which is not ''inside'' an audiolab thread. Non-audiolab people don't really post in this thread.
My main point I would wish to get across without any kind of brand priority -
DAC differences in sound quality - such as the difference between (even) a PC soundcard and a .. £5,000 Wadia are small.
Amplifier differences, between a £100 Richer Sounds amp and £5,000 worth of amplification are rather large.
Greater still, money spent on loudspeakers. It's all ''important'' of course.. but if I had your money, your pocket, and your life (which I dont, so please forgive any arrogance) - amplification would be my priority in budget terms.
The HK amp offers a tremendous quality amplifier in terms of power and functionality - I would reccomend trying one at home.
The ''insides'' of the HK amp are what I would expect to see in £2-£3k of amplification. Don't be fooled by the price tag. There's a sleeping giant in there.
**edit**
I'm not trying to start a bun fight, just want the poster to try other amplification avenues. Please don't jump down my throat Audiolab people..!
As the owner of a HK990, B&W CM9s and an Audiolab 8200CD via balanced, I can say that there is a very easily noticeable difference between the 8200CD and the HK990's internal dacs. Night and day easy. Not to say the HK990 is incompetent, far from it.
One seriously underrated/unnoticed amp, btw.
bottleneck
pfm Member
Hi Dtd
Good to have your input.
Certainly, as the owner of the amp, it's great to hear your feedback on it. Is it true that it uses the internals from the old high-end Gryphon range? I had heard this on the grapevine somewhere.
Given the price of the amp, the person would be able to try alternative DAC's (including an audiolab) and see what his preference may be, and compare to the internal DAC.. should he wish to do so.
*edit
http://www.hiwayhifi.com/site/product.asp?section=1&Cat=39&Sub=171&Prod=31092
just seen it for only £800, £200 off RRP.
Good to have your input.
Certainly, as the owner of the amp, it's great to hear your feedback on it. Is it true that it uses the internals from the old high-end Gryphon range? I had heard this on the grapevine somewhere.
Given the price of the amp, the person would be able to try alternative DAC's (including an audiolab) and see what his preference may be, and compare to the internal DAC.. should he wish to do so.
*edit
http://www.hiwayhifi.com/site/product.asp?section=1&Cat=39&Sub=171&Prod=31092
just seen it for only £800, £200 off RRP.
Well and truly is.
Pre-amp has user gain control, and has some other interesting design aspects that I don't quite understand. Balanced inputs that actually make a difference if the source is geared to take advantage.
Has some serious kit inside : internal power amps are actually mono blocks inside, which have plenty of decent capacitance, thermaltrak real time biasing transistors (10 each channel!) which return some seriously low levels of distortion even when pushed to 1ohm loads, and 2x 600VA transformers.
Only problem is obtaining/trying one. If your near the West Midlands, drop me a PM - you can listen to the set-up as described above if you like.
Hi,
Not sure on the Gryphon influence, but interestingly the German Hifi press love this amp and highly rate it (stereoplay and Audio.de), as do the french (massive 3000+ post thread on homecinema-fr.com), the brits (Hi-fi choice & Hifi news) and the Australians (Sound & Vision - product of year).
To top it off, also won the EISA 09/10 award which involves convincing a panel that the product is worthy.
It's not often I see that much appreciation for an amp across the board! Needless to say I ended up buying one without trying in a shop, and didn't return it.
I'd call it rather neutral, dynamic and detailed but never clinical in its approach. Incredible sound-stage, and lovely voicing of vocals. Very, very musical - doesn't seem to care what music you throw at it, it just does its thing. Clearly brilliant on the transients too - I'd hope so with all that current on tap!
Don't let the DSPs worry you, I can bypass the lot just by setting 'Direct mode'. As mentioned, the inbuilt DAC is certainly good enough to get you going. They accept 24/192 via coax SP/DIF.
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