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At last... (Audiolab) - part IV

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arthur

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dlcastles said:
Hi, has anyone tried these in-line attenuators with their CDQ?

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/20-921_CANFORD-IN-LINE-ATTENUATOR-20dB-600-ohms

http://www.studiospares.com/mic-accessories/pro-20db-inline-attenuator/invt/568580/

There is a significant difference in price. Any comments on sound quality, or alternative models?
With the Canford model, would the 600ohm or 200ohm version be better suited to the CDQ?

Thanks, Duncan
Click to expand...

I'd quite like to know something of these too. Anybody?

A tenner each sounds promising.
 
noricd said:
My family and I have benefited enormously in listening pleasure from numerous valuable insights on this Forum. So giving back by sharing information on the decision process I followed to buy power amps (Audiolab 8200MB pair) to go with my 8200CDQ.

This topic of how to buy a power amp took up a great deal of time, so hopefully others can benefit from these notes. Also, online commentary on the 8200MB is very thin (hello, Audiolab marketing department) as compared to alternatives, of which there are obviously many (Bryson, Classe, Emotiva, Bel Canto, Cambridge Audio, Primare, Arcam, Peachtree Nova, Audiolab 8200P etc etc).

I never knew about power amps until about six months ago. I bought a mid-range Denon AVR and that triggered the first steps in my learning curve.

Having decided I wanted mono blocks, in time I came to understand that I needed to examine my speakers, listening room, sources, and features of available power amps. This understanding I learned was to shape and define my selection variables or criteria, along with my budget.

My specific combination of kit is not the point of this post, rather it is how to go about reviewing your own situation to make an informed buying decision that might suit your use of the Audiolab DAC that you might have or want to have.

My speakers are 2 channel, Elac FS 247. These German speakers have nominal impedance of 4 ohm and minimum impedance of 3.4 ohms at 210 Hz, sensitivity of 89 db, generate bass at 30-50 hz, and nominal/peak power handling of 120/160 W. The local Sydney distributor informed me the 8200MB are 400w into 4 ohm speakers. I've not got the technology to test any of these technical features claimed by manufacturers. The distributor was very helpful in answering my few emails.

My listening room is medium-sized. My family's listening tastes are very broad - from acoustic piano to zydeco. I listen to a lot of jazz and like it loudish, but 90% of the time it has to be at moderate volumes due to house size and courtesy to neighbours.

My main source is a Mac mini and on it I use iTunes with Apple Lossless recordings. I therefore intended to use a USB cable into the 8200CDQ. Additionally I accepted the learning of others that XLR interconnects between the 8200MB and the 8200CDQ was better than RCA cables in terms of sound quality.

In time I gained some comfort from information that the 8200MB has its heritage in the Tag McLaren 250MR of 2001, designed by Douglas Self. The 8200MB has been disassembled to test its similarity to the 250MR. On release in 2001, a pair of 250MR was 4k pounds sterling. One wonders how much, if anything of significance, was changed to bring the Audiolab version up to date on its release in 2010.

I repeat that in seeking monoblock power amps I was working with a budget and I know too little about valve amps or class D amps to at this time "go there". The door is open for a future amp upgrade or replacement.

My local hifi retailer lent me the Audiolab 8200MB pair to trial for a month and I educated myself in what to listen for (and John Westlake has written on this too in the old thread). For example, sound quality on an amp includes listening for:

(i) resolution - the amount of detail captured
(ii) soundstage - - the height, width, and depth of the recording venue
(iii) soundspace - - the sense of space in the recording venue
(iv) soundfield - deep circle or oblong?
(v) imaging - the three dimensional holographic effect of instruments and performers being presented on the soundstage. Synonym - separation.
(vi) how does it handle dynamic contrasts and transients:
(a) handling of bass, accoustic and electronic
(b) handling of cymbals, triangles and drum brushes

I bought the monoblocks because I was very satisfied when they are used in combination with the 8200CDQ and my speakers. The additional reasons for comfort was easier local warranty service if needed, the price was right, I'd tested it in my listening room, it has plenty of power in terms of future proofing with other speakers, it's got a 12v trigger linked to the 8200CDQ, and I like its very modern, sleek design.

Of course there are many as good and better alternative amps. The 8200MB pair are working for me at this time, especially well at low volumes.
Click to expand...


Very good post!!
 
JohnW said:
If you dont need the 12V triggers, nothing really - If you really feel the need you can give it a couple of months and then send it back to IAG UK for update to OLED & "MK3" transformer + latest software (no price set yet, but I'm guessing around GBP100 with return shipping).

John
Click to expand...

Hi John, Hope you're well.
I've Just been catching up with the thread after a few weeks away from it. To be honest, it started to feel like I was spending more time talking about my CDQ than listening to it :)

I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that I've still not sent my unit back for the software update, despite Dominik kindly implementing the HT trim fix for me to get the balance right on my 5.1 system with the Rothwell attenuators in (they still aren't!).

This is not so much laziness as a testament to the pleasure I'm getting from the CDQ... it would be such a wrench to go without it for a few days :(

I reckon this hardware upgrade will be just the push I need... really looking forward to it, please let us know as soon as it's ready to go (I'm sure you were going to). Thanks very much for making these upgrades available. Reminds me a bit of the DaCapo days.

All the best,
Tim
 
Kevin Barrow said:
I have found these to be by far the best....
BTW, if you really want to 'go the whole hog', you can even request that these attenuators are Cryo frozen to improve the sound even more. Heaven!
Click to expand...
More like HOGWASH I would say. At £90 a pair, a total con too. These things cost PENCE to make if you have the machines to make RCA plugs/sockets.
 
I don't think they do cost pence. The WBT Nextgens contain four moulded plastic parts one machined, anodized and laser engraved barrel, and two drop forged copper pins in each plug. They'll be assembled by hand and are made up with 1% metal film resistors, they are pretty much overkill in every dept. I doubt it's possible to make them for less than a tenner a pair, delivered.
 
Whatever, realistically, they cost to manufacture, £90 is taking the p good and proper!

Given the cost of a few dB of gain when purchased from a hi-fi dealer, the idea of throwing it away seems even more bizarre...
 
Thanks Kevin, but they need to be XLR attenuators.

Plutox, you make a good point. Problem is my system has too much gain for my room and my neighbours! Even with my PMC monitors at their minimum output I'm typically listening to the CDQ at -40db to -30db, which is a level where John W reckons the digital attenuation volume control gets questionable.

The idea then is to use the attenuators to increase the gain levels on CDQ and monitors so they are operating at levels they are more comfortable with and get a better sound quality.

The question I have is whether the attenuators can have a negative effect on sound quality if they are poorly put together, so which are the best models to use? At a reasonable price, of course!
-- Duncan

Kevin Barrow said:
Dear all,

I have found these to be by far the best. They 'lock' onto phono sockets to give a superb connection and are available in various levels of attenuation (I have ProAc Tablette Signature speakers driven by a 9 watt Audion Silver Night (Single Ended Triode) integrated amp and need the maximum -22bd attenuators in order to keep the amp volume at max -as recommended by JW- for a level that you can just about hear someone sitting next to you talk in a 'normal' semi-detached house living room:

http://www.russandrews.com/product....&customer_id=PAA0728069311166KGOIDDDEEPYZTPPK

I hope this is of help. I assume that the larger the attenuation you can get away with the better, as the residual 'noise' in your interconnect cables (mine are VdH The First Ultimate) is then at its lowest level in relation to the music signal strength (I would be very grateful if JW could let me know if there is a flaw in my thinking!)

BTW, if you really want to 'go the whole hog', you can even request that these attenuators are Cryo frozen to improve the sound even more. Heaven!

Regards,

Kevin Barrow (proud CDQ owner).
Click to expand...
 
dlcastles said:
...they need to be XLR attenuators.

Even with my PMC monitors at their minimum output I'm typically listening to the CDQ at -40db to -30db, which is a level where John W reckons the digital attenuation volume control gets questionable.

...which are the best models to use? At a reasonable price, of course!
Click to expand...
Why not try these?

At that price, what have you to loose? And it just might show you how ridiculous the pricing of some audio accessories really is.
 
JohnW said:
Richard,

Oh Gosh - My Bad, broken a promise once again! just made the phone call!!

V. Sorry,

John
Click to expand...

Hi John,

No problem, thanks for that.

All sorted i have picked it up today, so looking forward to setting it up later.

Thanks again for your help and organising it.

Much appreciated

Richard
 
Hi,

CDQ connection cable question...

Does anyone have any experience of if the choice of balanced cables make a difference.
This is to connect the CDQ to a Bryston Power Amp.

The ones i have purchased are cheap lindy ones.
http://www.lindy.co.uk/15m-xlr-cable-male-to-female-black/6052.html

Would it make any difference getting something like these instead?
http://www.chord.co.uk/products.php?pg=105 or
http://www.vandenhul.com/p_B09.aspx


Also on a seperate note to do with amplifier gain.
My poweramp is a 3 channel Bryston 6B-SST, if i connect L&R through the CDQ using the home cinema bypass with balanced cables and therefore the gain switch set to 2V, and the center channel from the processor connected as single ended and therefore gain switch set to 1V....will this cause any wrong level issues due to the mix of balanced and unbalanced connections?

thanks

Richard
 
You will just need to go back to your AV amps menu and re-adjust the levels for Center and rears to match the front's






vishnu737 said:
Hi,

CDQ connection cable question...

Does anyone have any experience of if the choice of balanced cables make a difference.
This is to connect the CDQ to a Bryston Power Amp.

The ones i have purchased are cheap lindy ones.
http://www.lindy.co.uk/15m-xlr-cable-male-to-female-black/6052.html

Would it make any difference getting something like these instead?
http://www.chord.co.uk/products.php?pg=105 or
http://www.vandenhul.com/p_B09.aspx


Also on a seperate note to do with amplifier gain.
My poweramp is a 3 channel Bryston 6B-SST, if i connect L&R through the CDQ using the home cinema bypass with balanced cables and therefore the gain switch set to 2V, and the center channel from the processor connected as single ended and therefore gain switch set to 1V....will this cause any wrong level issues due to the mix of balanced and unbalanced connections?

thanks

Richard
Click to expand...
 
I've been listening to my audiolab 8200 CDQ and given it and my new monoblock amps plenty of time to run in and something isn't quite right there's a brightness which didn't seem to make sense, first I thought the speakers were not up to the job (Quad 12l's) but it was staring me in the face right from the outset, the amps,one would blow fuses every now and then on start up, and there was a hum from both which I kept ignoring but in the end I thought can't be right and rang someone who's been in the industry for a while and he told me the amps were wrong.
Unfortunately these amps were from America and I'll have to return them at a loss to me. A lesson learnt on my part always listen to the gear before you buy and make sure there's back up in your area.
 
Hi John,

I think I read somewhere that the CDQ could not be guaranteed to reproduce 192KHz sample rate music files as there is a bug in the Sabre DAC chip. Could you clarify this please i.e. is it a quality variation problem so some CDQ's work OK at this rate, or is it related to music file content so some tracks will play correctly and others won't on any machine? If this is correct has there been any progress to rectify this by ESS or workaround in CDQ/DQ firmware so 192KHz playback is reliable?

Thanks
 
ashmanuk said:
You will just need to go back to your AV amps menu and re-adjust the levels for Center and rears to match the front's
Click to expand...

Thanks, but it's not really about level matching as that will be at a particular reference volume level. But as the gain is different will it be consistent through the volume changes across the 3 front channels.
 
Shanra,

Amps “Hum” on power-up could be “Normal” I don’t know the units. But Blowing Fuses is troubling.

Are you based in the UK? I strongly suggest before going though the very expensive hassle of sending your amplifiers back to the US, that we first checkout your CDQ.

I would hate it to find out that after you’ve sent your amplifiers all the way to the US, that we then find out something was wrong with your unit.

If you PM via this Forum I will make the arrangements – We will check your unit FOC (Free of Charge), so long as you can pay the delivery to us to Huntingdon – you will also get the latest software if your unit is an earlier version.

Quad 12l’s can be a touch bright – but I’d have the CDQ checked first then your amps (as they are blowing fuses.

JamJar784,

The cause of the 192 kHz locking issue is internal to the ESS DAC – a hardware design issue which can only be resolved by using an external SPDIF receiver.

The internal SPDIF receiver of the ESS has issues with “Pulse Width Distortion” of the SPDIF data stream – at 192 kHz a PWD error of around 5nS or more can cause the ESS to loose lock. 5nS is a very small error in the real world – so we cannot guarantee operability with 192 kHz sources.

ESS have acknowledge the issue – but have no plans to respin the silicon – despite still promoting the Devices as “192kHz” compatible via its SPDIF receiver. Once again we find ourselves haing to take the brunt of someone else’s design failings!

Each unit is production tested at 192 kHz (and Passed) – but while driven from a high-quality SPDIF source.

In the Lab we use the Julia sound card – this works without issue.

As the issue is an internal design flaw of the ESS DAC IC there is very little can do to correct – without a total redesign of the product.

If 192 kHz is important – then the issue has been resolved on the MDAC / QDAC.

Any future MK2 versions of the CD / CDQ / DQ will fix this issue – the MK2 will be offered as a “Low cost” upgrade for existing customers.


Richard,

Yes the “Gain” will remand constant – you even have the option of “Home Theater” level trim under the “Menu” options when you select an Analogue input.

The CDQ really needs a week to run-in (just keep it powered up); also insure you try the filters…

Duncan,

I Agree with Plutox…go for the 600 ohm versions; you will have an Attenuation error – but less loading on the CDQ output.

Noricd,

Wow - I can really see you have taken to evaluate your system.

The MB's are polarizing, People either Love then to bits - or hate them...

John
 
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