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Are you optimistic about the UK's future?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by wulbert, May 25, 2023.

  1. ks.234

    ks.234 Half way to Infinity

    It isn’t from the inside!
    Covkxw and tiggers like this.
  2. Ponty

    Ponty pfm Member

    Spot on. Continually rising consumption of resources is incompatible with an exponentially increasing population. We’re living longer, working less and consuming more. Somethings got to give.
  3. ks.234

    ks.234 Half way to Infinity

    Consuming less has to be the number one environmental objective.

    But a more equal distribution of those resources whatever they are has to be number one if social justice is an objective, and it is social justice that is at the heart of the OP
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  4. gintonic

    gintonic 50 shades of grey pussy cats

    it is
    Minio likes this.
  5. Ponty

    Ponty pfm Member

    And at a global level you have developing countries whose goals are to consume far more. Which means the developed world consuming less for a more ‘equal’ planet. Or do they just have to suck it up?
  6. ks.234

    ks.234 Half way to Infinity

    I don’t want to get drawn into an environment debate here, but a more equal distribution of resources at a global level has to take place alongside a more equal distribution at a state level and this in turn has to take place alongside consuming less unsustainable resources, shorter supply chains, massive reductions in pollution generation etc etc at both a state and global level.

    For this to happen we need an economic model that is not predicated on ever increasing profit and exploitation of resources. We need an economic model based on public utility, rather than private utility as it is now.

    So no, “they” don’t have to suck it up. “We” as one of the richest nations with notions of equality and justice built into our democratic assumptions have to lead the way.
  7. Ponty

    Ponty pfm Member

    OK, if we’re talking redistribution at a global level, the UK and the whole of the western world needs to get used to very much lower living standards and consumption. Can’t see it happening.
  8. ks.234

    ks.234 Half way to Infinity

    Consumption, yes. Living standards, no. At least not if health, education, infrastructure, social security, well being and happiness are counted as measures
  9. Darth Vader

    Darth Vader From the Dark Side

    "Are you optimistic about the UK's future?"


    There does seem to be a lot of navel gazing and moaning on pfm but we are really lucky living in the UK. Just take a moment to see how the majority on this planet lives and thank your lucky stars that you were born here.

    Things will be different in the future. History has taught us that people live in different times and technology has been the big driver to give us all a better life - even though there were moaners back then! However if you read through the Holy Bible as an ancient history book you'll see that although people lived in different times people haven't changed in all those years.

    I also don't understand why there is concern about 'consumption' whatever that is supposed to mean. The stuff we need in order for us to live is part of the carbon cycle and so are we. So long as the Sun shines that cycle will continue and will be self regulating as everything is in equilibrium.

    The real danger are nuclear weapons. Doesn't Russia have something like 2000 war heads? More than enough to send this planet way back down to the ice age or maybe further back.

    Cheese likes this.
  10. blossomchris

    blossomchris I feel better than James Brown

    I have heard this sort of moaning for yonks, whether it is against left or eight. I bet nobody on here moaning about the UK will leave to reside elsewhere. Sounds to me more like gossip/fantasy and something very few do for the reasons stated on here
  11. Dozey

    Dozey Air guitar member

    I am not optimistic about the human race in general tbh. Too many people and too many stupid people
    NeilR likes this.
  12. Minio

    Minio Yeah no so

    Albania looks nice.

    I nearly got there from Corfu but the guy on the beach wanted his pedalo back.
  13. dweezil

    dweezil pfm Member

    More like 5000 i thought, nuclear winter is a possibility unless they feel like being nice and setting the fuses for high altitude.

    Similar for USA, maybe 400 for UK?

    Readiness is hard to judge for a nuclear arsenal, Russia might have chosen yachts instead.
  14. kensalriser

    kensalriser pfm Member

    No. Climate change just isn't being taken seriously by enough people.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr, miktec and NeilR like this.
  15. blossomchris

    blossomchris I feel better than James Brown

    what in the Uk or the whole wide world
  16. Cheese

    Cheese Bitter lover

    In Europe we don’t really care, even though we could. Places like South Asia, Africa and some of Latin America are even more of a challenge, as they just can’t afford to think about climate. Future looks grim.
  17. Big Tabs

    Big Tabs looking backwards, going forwards

  18. Mike Hughes

    Mike Hughes pfm Member

    Picking up where I left off…

    I’ve personally worked in the voluntary, union, charity and local authority settings over four decades. Apologies for using the word simplistic again but I think it applies here. Two things:

    1 - the large screen TV trope was started by the Tories in the late 80s as a fightback against the Townsend idea of relative poverty. I abhor it. It’s lazy and ignorant. A number of well-meaning people who worked in the charity and voluntary sectors adopted it because the ethos of their organisations saw poverty as suggestive of a need for lifestyle change rather than a conscious, structural political choice of government. If you were in debt then it was your fault. Sacrifice something. Change your lifestyle. Accept blame. Accept your weakness and our help. A mindset which allowed creditors to challenge financial statements on the basis that the claimant should give up smoking rather than considering that maybe it was the being in debt which maintained the need to smoke. It’s an attitude which persists today with stuff like Christians Against Poverty.

    If you wanted a TV in your household, any TV, then you were looking at rentals rather than purchase. A household which can only afford to rent a product considered a staple of modern life is instantly telling you a story of being poor and lacking in capital. If you rented then you would know that the sector abandoned CRT screens long before the rest of the population did and job lots of large flat screens used in shops etc. and moved on at massive discounts made their way into the rental sector. The difference between renting a 30” screen and a 60” screen in rental terms was pretty much pence. When self-respect has so much come to be about ownership of things why would you not go for the bigger option? The TV may have cost £10k but the claimant would be “renting” it for around £5 in 1992.

    Car situation not dissimilar. Healthy trade in stolen vehicles and you might want to look at he car threads on hi-fi forums before deciding on what is “appropriate”.

    Mobile phones? By 1992 we had GSM and phone prices falling rapidly from four to three figures. Bricks lost value very quickly and again there was a healthy trade in both stolen and second hand.

    The other thing here, which still doesn’t get talked about, is that these are the families with kids who struggle in education; have poor housing; poor health etc.The arrogance of front line workers from all sectors was to assume that people were spending frivolously when actually they were spending weekly because they had no lump sum or credit facility beyond renting, and, often the TVs were used by kids with LDs who had hidden visual impairments and ditto their parents. Generally speaking front line workers formed opinions on stuff like this without ever having conversations about the why. Doing that painted a very different picture and I can honestly say that in the various organisations I’ve worked in we despise anyone who tries to pull the “… if only they didn’t spend on x…” rubbish. It’s an attitude from a different age and reflects nothing as to how things look at present.

    2 - people “taking advantage” of the system? Similar really. The only advantage with regard to the benefits system would be in trying to have an income which would enable you to live. Generally individual fraud is negligible but almost always derived from poverty and little else. DWP accounts have been qualified for decades now. Their assertions around overpayments and fraud have never stood up to analysis but the media loves a good individual fraud case even though most are simply poorly represented cases which ought not to have gone anywhere near a courtroom. Out in the real world the only advantage being gained has always been via organised crime. In the case of UC they have brilliantly designed fraud into the claim process.
  19. matt j

    matt j pfm Member

    We're just some tin-pot joke of an outfit now, one that can't let go of its past as a global super power to boot. We've certainly passed the peak of our time, although those that enjoyed said time's benefits will carry on saying it's an amazing place that we're so lucky to live in whilst simultaneously pulling up the ladder and making off with all the silver.

    I don't see anything to be optimistic about, life is just a drudge at the coal face and then you end up in a box.
  20. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    On the other hand when we know the destination is a box in the ground we may as well try and enjoy the journey!

    (and yes, I know that's sometimes easier said than done...)

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