Are you optimistic about the UK's future?

[ks.234]

Oh, you think I need advising on the cost of living crisis. Excellent.

None of your link addresses the point made in my post but carry on. The ONS addresses this far more directly but are micro level many of us work in services where our casework recording software enables to pull off data about all sorts if things including income, disposable income etc. and it really isn’t as simple as you present. Nor has it ever been. I’ve dealt with people on means-tested benefits with significant disposable income and someone earning £100k with close to zero. Latter was not about choice either.

Your point that “Disposable income depends on your expenditure choices” was dealt with head on.

If disposable income has fallen then so to have expenditure choices, and the sad fact that so many people in employment now have to use food banks should be clear evidence that people having to chose between heating and eating is not down to their own poor expenditure choices.

There very clearly are structural economic problems facing many people today, structural problems that are the product of deliberate political choices going back decades

 

[Gingerbeard]

Britons are the most pessimistic across 29 countries about their disposable incomes.

I'm not. I feel quite miserable when I contemplate the future in this country. But it might just be me. I think getting by on a low income tends one towards pessimism. Even if only because one relies so much more on public infrastructure working as it should. And it doesn't any more.

Do other people feel optimistic? Are you confident about the future for you and your loved ones?

Last time I felt optimism about this country was perhaps 1997 when the Blair government got elected, the Good Friday Agreement being announced and the lead up to the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum. Early 2000 felt optimistic too, up until September 2001.

The best thing I have done over recent times is to stop watching the news and to take up meditation. It's by no means a panacea, but it has really helped me to have a more positive outlook on life

 

[TheDecameron]

Simply being born in the UK means you’ve won in the global lottery of life.

The Sage of Swindon loved that bon mot but things have changed round the place since Rhodes ended up under a very large outcrop of sandstone in Matobo, yet it obviously has resonance with the 1.2 million long term immigrants who arrived in Britain last year.

Embarrassed to be British...

 

[Minio]

And if you stop reading pfm off topic you might find Utopia.

 

[ks.234]

And if you stop reading pfm you could find Utopia.

Stop voting Tory would be a more positive step in that direction!

 

[Mike Hughes]

Your point that “Disposable income depends on your expenditure choices” was dealt with head on.

If disposable income has fallen then so to have expenditure choices, and the sad fact that so many people in employment now have to use food banks should be clear evidence that people having to chose between heating and eating is not down to their own poor expenditure choices.

There very clearly are structural economic problems facing many people today, structural problems that are the product of deliberate political choices going back decades

You seem to want to deal in absolutes and the simplistic. My point, based on, you know, four decades of actually dealing in detail with the finances of the very people you seem to want to proclaim about, remains that these absolutes simply don’t exist. It suits a specific narrative and political viewpoint that they do but they don’t. There are plenty of people who see falls in income. Not all see reduced expenditure choice. Plenty do but not all. That is simplistic and incorrect. A misrepresentation of the reality.

Food banks are a disgrace but here a straw man. My point was that disposable income and income are two very different things. The existence of food banks is nothing to the point in that respect. Disposable income does not depend on having a reasonable income as you assert. Is there a relationship? Of course. Is it as linear and simplistic as you state? Absolutely not. Worth repeating.

I’ve dealt with people on means-tested benefits with significant disposable income and someone earning £100k with close to zero. Latter was not about choice either.

 

[Minio]

The drop in disposable income is being caused by inflation. Even worse in Germany where it has caused recession.
I've noticed some different effects from inflation. When I went to buy my usual house chardonnay in Sainsburys it had gone up by 45p.
So a looked a bit further down the shelf and found chardonnay even cheaper than I used to pay.
The much whined about cost of living crisis has prompted me to look at many of my bills with similar effect like insurance and broadband.
My disposable income now seems to have risen.

 

[paulfromcamden]

Simply being born in the UK means you’ve won in the global lottery of life.

There's lots I love about being British. The countryside, traditional pubs, the piss-taking humour, bags of thick greasy chips dripping in vinegar, British tailoring, shedloads of amazing British music... all the usual stuff I guess.

But that doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that economically we seem to be in decline and we seem destined to be ruled by talent vacuum governments out to line their own pockets.

 

[ks.234]

You seem to want to deal in absolutes and the simplistic. My point, based on, you know, four decades of actually dealing in detail with the finances of the very people you seem to want to proclaim about, remains that these absolutes simply don’t exist. It suits a specific narrative and political viewpoint that they do but they don’t. There are plenty of people who see falls in income. Not all see reduced expenditure choice. Plenty do but not all. That is simplistic and incorrect. A misrepresentation of the reality.

Food banks are a disgrace but here a straw man. My point was that disposable income and income are two very different things. The existence of food banks is nothing to the point in that respect. Disposable income does not depend on having a reasonable income as you assert. Is there a relationship? Of course. Is it as linear and simplistic as you state? Absolutely not. Worth repeating.

But no one said that income and disposable income were the same thing.

 

[Mike Hughes]

Sigh. You said

If the disposable income of the rich goes up, the disposable income of the poor has to go down.

I pointed out that you were talking about income, as disposable income is a different thing. I believe I’ve subsequently made the point but you prefer absolutes. Hey Ho.

 

[ks.234]

Sigh. You said



I pointed out that you were talking about income, as disposable income is a different thing. I believe I’ve subsequently made the point but you prefer absolutes. Hey Ho.

Again, no one has argued that income and disposable income are the same thing.

 

[MikeMA]

Again, no one has argued that income and disposable income are the same thing.

English may not be his first language .

 

[Mike Hughes]

Again, no one has argued that income and disposable income are the same thing.

And your actual point is? Beyond looking for an argument in an empty room?

 

[ks.234]

You said it was your point.

 

[Sloop John B]

Great country - it’s the people I have no time for!

(Reference to is.234 vs Mike Hughes thread takeover)

.sjb

 

[Mike Hughes]

You said it was your point.

So to be clear then this is your substantive response to my legitimate point that income and disposable income are two different things and they do not have a linear relationship i.e. no response to the substantive point at all. I’ve made the point. Nothing to add until there’s something else worthy of comment.

 

[Cheese]

If disposable income has fallen then so to have expenditure choices, and the sad fact that so many people in employment now have to use food banks should be clear evidence that people having to chose between heating and eating is not down to their own poor expenditure choices.

Have you ever worked for a charity organisation ? For a time I used to deliver food to the people in need. Many really were in need and lived in unworthy conditions, but many others weren't in need at all. Well they still sort of were, in the sense that they couldn't figure out in any way that their monster TV set, Chevrolet pick-up and multiple cell phones (30 years ago) weren't items of basic necessity. Those people were definitely in trouble, yet they still left a mixed impression on me. Finally there were also those who perfectly knew that they were just taking advantage of the system, it made them save money after all. Bear in mind that I invested a lot of saturdays 9 to 5 without earning a penny and being not paid for my expenses, not even the fuel. After a while I got tired of it.

 

[Ponty]

The drop in disposable income is being caused by inflation. Even worse in Germany where it has caused recession.
I've noticed some different effects from inflation. When I went to buy my usual house chardonnay in Sainsburys it had gone up by 45p.
So a looked a bit further down the shelf and found chardonnay even cheaper than I used to pay.
The much whined about cost of living crisis has prompted me to look at many of my bills with similar effect like insurance and broadband.
My disposable income now seems to have risen.

Exactly, inflation is the enemy. My M&S bran flakes have just gone from 75p to 90p. Still cheap but a 20% increase. Petrol has dropped quite a bit though. The killer is mortgages / rent, which of course is a result of measures required to counter inflation, with another circa 1% rise being predicted. It’s the hangover from over a decade of free money I’m afraid, turbocharged by covid. As you say, not looking so good in Germany right now.

 

[Ponty]

There's lots I love about being British. The countryside, traditional pubs, the piss-taking humour, bags of thick greasy chips dripping in vinegar, British tailoring, shedloads of amazing British music... all the usual stuff I guess.

But that doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that economically we seem to be in decline and we seem destined to be ruled by talent vacuum governments out to line their own pockets.

If you look back in time, there’s always an economic crisis. Now, Germany in recession, real concerns over US banks and debt ceilings etc etc. Still wouldn’t live anywhere else.

 

[calorgas]

I'm generally less concerned about the UK's future than I am about the whole planet's future. The ebbs and flows of an individual country are just a side story compared to the environmental catastrophe that we're bringing upon ourselves.