Apple unethical...

[Colin L]

My M1 mini developed problems running my Thunderbolt display. Long story short, after much faffing by process of elimination the USB-C / TB4 ports seemed to be the problem, which was verified by a trip to the local Apple Centre and a diagnostics test.

New logic board needed so after a cursory review of the test report I signed the authorisation for a warranty repair, a copy of was mailed to me.

When I got home and read it I find these little gems in the document..

"Apple may use parts or products that are new or equivalent to new in reliability and performance", and "I acknowledge that I agree to use REFURBISHED part(s)/unit(s)"

Cue belligerent phone calls to the Apple call centre and put through to the shop. Their attitude was "we get the parts sent to us and have no control over new or refurbished. Its Apple policy and in the terms and conditions you could have read. Do you want it repaired or not". Pleasant but unresponsive and probably from a prepared script.

I can't think of any other warranty product for which parts could be refurbished. Try doing that with car parts and I think we know what the reaction would be.

My main gripe is that if this is policy it should be explained clearly at the time and not swept over, then highlighted in an after-the-fact email.

I think this M1 mini might be my last Apple computer.

 

[flutteringwow]

My M1 mini developed problems running my Thunderbolt display. Long story short, after much faffing by process of elimination the USB-C / TB4 ports seemed to be the problem, which was verified by a trip to the local Apple Centre and a diagnostics test.

New logic board needed so after a cursory review of the test report I signed the authorisation for a warranty repair, a copy of was mailed to me.

When I got home and read it I find these little gems in the document..

"Apple may use parts or products that are new or equivalent to new in reliability and performance", and "I acknowledge that I agree to use REFURBISHED part(s)/unit(s)"

Cue belligerent phone calls to the Apple call centre and put through to the shop. Their attitude was "we get the parts sent to us and have no control over new or refurbished. Its Apple policy and in the terms and conditions you could have read. Do you want it repaired or not". Pleasant but unresponsive and probably from a prepared script.

I can't think of any other warranty product for which parts could be refurbished. Try doing that with car parts and I think we know what the reaction would be.

My main gripe is that if this is policy it should be explained clearly at the time and not swept over, then highlighted in an after-the-fact email.

I think this M1 mini might be my last Apple computer.

I would hardly say its unethical, it's more the opposite in my opinion, as instead of landfilling components, they are reusing them, and putting a warranty on them when fitted.

Its fairly common for electrical firms to use salvaged/recycled components, TV repairs, DVD repairs etc all use salvaged parts. I imagine lots of industries do also.

A computer is not a car, therefore it is not a killing machine persay, but to be fair, one may argue that would you like to try a part that is well functioning tried and tested, or one that could have a manufacturing defect out of the box being thats its new.

I can understand your annoyance, but I think in this day and age now, we must accept and appreciate companies doing this rather than manufacturing new ones, it helps the environment and the Earths resources.

 

[Elephantears]

Interesting. When I complained to Apple about the faulty hinge on the old 2012 27" iMac, a known design flaw that they've admitted, they said they no longer do repairs because they do not have the same parts in the stores. But this is surely contradicted by what you've reported, that they are willing to use refurbished parts.

Apple can be absolute b**tards when it comes to repairs, even with products they've admitted are flawed. The worst episode I had was with a Macbook Pro with a faulty graphics chip. They had acknowledged there was a batch with faulty Intel chips and extended the warranty, but it was very hard to find out this was the case. And it took an endless struggle with multiple layers of denial to get anything done.

 

[Colin L]

Interesting. When I complained to Apple about the faulty hinge on the old 2012 27" iMac, a known design flaw that they've admitted, they said they no longer do repairs because they do not have the same parts in the stores. But this is surely contradicted by what you've reported, that they are willing to use refurbished parts.

Apple can be absolute b**tards when it comes to repairs, even with products they've admitted are flawed. The worst episode I had was with a Macbook Pro with a faulty graphics chip. They had acknowledged there was a batch with faulty Intel chips and extended the warranty, but it was very hard to find out this was the case. And it took an endless struggle with multiple layers of denial to get anything done.

I had the same issue with an MBP with the integrated and discrete GPU's. The discrete GPU had a known fault and would eventually fail and Apple acknowledged this and extended the warranty period for that part. I wasn't aware of the issue and mine failed 6 months after the end of that period. Stuffed.

 

[bor]

Try doing that with car parts and I think we know what the reaction would be.

Actually, we do in some cases have to remanufacture used car parts. The stock of new spare parts might no longer be available, and to recast parts is prohibitively expensive.

In that case, refurbishing used parts is our only option. The refurbished parts will be like new, but it is an absolute ball-ache to do in comparison to using stocks of new parts.

Reman costs us more than the original production part to do, and I imagine the same goes for Apple et al.

It is the last option for us, but for the customer it should be indistinguishable from new. The alternative might be NO replacement parts at all, leaving you with an expensive ornament.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Apple haven't been that little band of happy Silicon Valley hippies for years, so hardly surprising they're acting like any big corprorate.

 

[Tony L]

When I got home and read it I find these little gems in the document..

"Apple may use parts or products that are new or equivalent to new in reliability and performance", and "I acknowledge that I agree to use REFURBISHED part(s)/unit(s)"

It will be a stock form. To the best of my knowledge Apple don’t do any board rework at all. I wish they would as their replace and “recycle” the old is remarkably non-green. They certainly don’t have any real technical knowledge in their stores. I suspect that clause exists for phone screen replacements under AppleCare etc, e.g. if they replace a dropped phone you just get the same type of phone back (in as-new condition), not necessarily yours. The only time I’ve dealt with them they replaced my iPad, which had developed a display issue, with another that appeared to be new but wasn’t boxed.

 

[wacko]

As long as the kit works and/or they continue to be generous with replacements I don't see too much of a problem.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I would hardly say its unethical, it's more the opposite in my opinion, as instead of landfilling components, they are reusing them, and putting a warranty on them when fitted.

Silicon has a finite life span, it can't be 'regened' if a company use this angle they are sugar coating a turd.

 

[flutteringwow]

Silicon has a finite life span, it can't be 'regened' if a company use this angle they are sugar coating a turd.

Whats the lifespan?

 

[Tony L]

Silicon has a finite life span, it can't be 'regened' if a company use this angle they are sugar coating a turd.

Given my early-80s BBC B and ZX Spectrum both work perfectly after a recap I’d argue there is no issue within the expected 3-10 year lifespan of a modern computer!

Regardless this is IMHO just typical corporate legal boilerplate, the bottom line is Apple’s ‘green’ marketing is pure BS, they are anything but. The mainboard will be replaced with brand new. To be honest it will likely just be a new machine and the old one will go through a ‘shredder’ that reclaims maybe 20% of the resources. They are a remarkably wasteful company regardless of the pictures of lovely trees at WWDC etc.

PS In fairness I did have to replace a couple of the smaller chips in the Beeb, but there is no saying it was age-related, they could have failed for a multitude of reasons as I don’t know the machine’s history. Capacitors and batteries aside computer mainboards are very reliable IME. Most things from the dawn of computer history can be brought back to working condition. There are certainly some known issues, e.g. certain revisions of Ferranti ULAs in Spectrums go mad with age and heat, as do the SID chips in C64s (now valuable and hard to find), but we are talking about stuff way, way older than anyone is ever going to run as a main PC.

 

[Cesare]

I had the same issue with an MBP with the integrated and discrete GPU's. The discrete GPU had a known fault and would eventually fail and Apple acknowledged this and extended the warranty period for that part. I wasn't aware of the issue and mine failed 6 months after the end of that period. Stuffed.

If I remember this was around 10 years ago (well, when the machines were made) and that fact you bring this up here does tell us a little about the reputational damage that these sorts of events can lead to, and how careful companies need to be to keep customers on side, especially when selling them a premium product.

I recently took my previous macbook pro to have the battery replaced (which would have cost north of £2k), as my son would be using it for a college course, and was told that the machine was 'obsolete' and hence they didn't have the ability to replace the battery. Now since it was around 7 years old, i'm not totally sure what their definition of 'obsolete' is, but anyhow, a quick search online and iFixit supplied a replacement battery and tools to replace it, and although they said it was a difficult job to do (basically stripping down the machine to the case and ungluing the battery) it turned out to be relatively simple if you have any skill with a screwdriver the machine was back up and running and working fine. So much for 'obsolete'...

Bitching at apple is a bit of a tradition, however I still seem to be using their machines.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Semiconductor devices will fail eventually. But "eventually" may be a loooong time if they are well made and used well within their performance envelope. IIRC the main problems tend to be thermal stresses and current density 'drifting' doping or elements from one part of the device to another. e.g. causing a connection to fail or get noisy/intermittent.

The problem with 'modern' computers, 'phones', etc, is the maker's presumption that it will be replaced in 5 years time. So they can push the components till the failures come at a time that suits that presumption. If the Law required them to provide a 25 year guarantee this might miraculously cease to be the case.

Even when the EU issued a requiement for a 5 year warranty big makers simply loopholed their way round it, and defied customers to force them to comply.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Bitching at apple is a bit of a tradition, however I still seem to be using their machines.

Pushers know that users bitch, but still buy.

 

[Tony L]

Pushers know that users bitch, but still buy.

There is some real push-back at present though. Right To Repair is gaining a lot of traction both as a global movement and legally with changes in law in many nations and states. The key thing is not to be obsessed with Apple, Levovo etc, they are so big they’ll have to bow to pressure. It’s all the budget no-name crap that will still end up in landfill after a couple of years.

 

[AndyU]

I went to an Apple store to get my iPhone 6 screen replaced. Come back in an hour they said. I did. They said, we couldn't fix your screen, would you like a new phone for the price of the repair. Yes I said. I dare say the phone they gave me might have been refurbished. I couldn't tell if from new, apart from the box. Delighted with the service.

My old iMac failed. Took it to the apple store. They said it needed a new logic board, and iirc the paperwork said something about using a refurbished part. Didn't bother me. They fixed my iMac, and guaranteed the repair. Delighted with the service.

Fine with me if apple salvage and refurbish parts. Just a docile fanboy.

 

[garyi]

As far as I know they have used refurb parts for years and years but because they put a year on it I fail to see the issue. Where I had issues with two screen they were new and so to the keyboard they replaced twice on my 2016 macbook pro, for free well out of warranty.

Apple are the definition of corp now, but I cannot argue with after sales.

BTW did anyone watch the latest keynote? I tried but I fell asleep so gave up.

 

[Woodface]

The idea that Apple have ever been ethical is quite amusing.

 

[JensenHealey]

Ethical - impossible to define. It is only a relative term and depends entirely on your start point or view point. 'Ethical' to one will not be to another.

Its the same with lots of things - freedom fighter or terrorist? - same animal, different viewpoint.

I think Apple are doing at least as well as anyone else in their field, and possibly more. Given their size (absolute AND relative!) they are in a position to move the market and influence their customers, whilst still delivering the latest tech in a desirable form. And are not Apple phones of today more recyclable (at least one aspect of ethicality) than previous generations?. The trend would be expected to continue..

 

[AndyU]

BTW did anyone watch the latest keynote? I tried but I fell asleep so gave up.

Yep, wasn't very inspiring. Seems that a lot of their "new" stuff has processors that are barely any better than the previous models, probably because they recently lost 100 or so of their top chip designers. I also think that the lack of a live audience is beginning to tell, there's no buzz and no feedback for the presenters, who are now starting to look a bit like CGI versions of themselves. But the company is still doing not bad. Good luck to them. There are 16 billion transistors in an M1. It would be hard to do that with valves.

edited to add: I may have been wrong about the speed improvements of the new processors. Yesterday that’s what commentators were saying, but there’s some quite decent benchmarks appearing today.