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AP Avanti v / MA PL300 / PMC Fact.8

wouter

Member
Choices, choices,...

After my first hearing round 3 floorstanders still stand the chance of parting me from the content of my wallet. Below is my - very subjective - review of these. The only one I heard at home was the PMC. For now, I find myself undecided.

Audio Physic Avanti v: superb soundstage and consistency, sparkling and very detailed mid/high. Bass is ok, under control. Relaxing. No big negatives except it's a bit less wife-friendly. It is expensive and above budget at 8,5K£ new. Option to buy 2nd hand at around 4K£. (Heard these with Musical Fidelity, Naim and McIntosh amps. Last one far outshone the rest but was way out of my league pricewise.)

MA PL300: excellent detail and magnificent in treble. Good soundstage but not perfectly consistent (too much hi-bass coming through) and maybe a little forward/harsh sometime (could be the massive detail). I can buy these new at around 5K£. I'm a bit afraid of the bass in my room though (14'*19' but 15' high). Heard with ClassE and a less expensive but still out of my league McIntosh.

PMC Fact.8: very clean and also quite relaxing. Detail not perfect as in PL300 but very good, great bass and very listenable at low volume. Treble/mids are good and clean but the least engaging listen of the 3. New at around 4K and they look great. Heard'm with Bryston and my Yammie757 which did not even sound bad at all - imagine.

Heard loads of other stuff from Kef, B&W, Naim, Focal but nothing that gave me shivers.
Oh yeah: 40% jazz, 40% rock/pop/hiphop/urban (anything groovy) and 10% electro and classical each. Speakers tested with The Streets, Diana Krall, Thelonious Monk and Roots Manuva.

Of course, I'm eager to hear anyone's advice/suggestions from real world experience...thanks!

cheers,
Wouter
 
...owned the PL300. They did have to go because my room turned out to be far to small to enjoy them. Too much in the face, although I loved the smooth and detailed treble (room is 14*14).
 
My wife and I listened to Fact 8's. Wife liked the style. Not long after I found some ex-dem Linn 242's going for 3.5k - quite a bit less than new Fact 8's (then 4700 quid). I'm driving them actively with a pair of Linn 5125 five channel amps which cost me £800 each (not including active cards). It's not a bad set up for the money but not as pretty as the Fact 8's. All I'm saying is my set up is worth a listen if you're thinking of spending 4k - 5k on Fact 8's. There seem to be a lot of ex-dem 242's around at the moment as Linn have updated them and some dealers are swapping out perfectly good old ones.
 
Thanks sonddek - Linn's a bit harder to find across the channel here in Belgium though. How would you compare the sound of the PMC vs. the 242s?
 
Choices, choices,...

MA PL300: excellent detail and magnificent in treble. Good soundstage but not perfectly consistent (too much hi-bass coming through) and maybe a little forward/harsh sometime (could be the massive detail). I can buy these new at around 5K£. I'm a bit afraid of the bass in my room though (14'*19' but 15' high). Heard with ClassE and a less expensive but still out of my league McIntosh.

I have now had my PL300s for six months. My room is larger and I suspect that they will overpower your room. They really need some space around them. Incredible detail. I find the bass well sorted. I would agree that they are a little forward but not harsh (now) - indeed I found that the ribbon took some months to run in and at first, yes, harsh but not any longer. A poor recording will be shown up accordingly.
 
Thanks sonddek - Linn's a bit harder to find across the channel here in Belgium though. How would you compare the sound of the PMC vs. the 242s?

Unfortunately I didn't get to listen to them on the same day with the same source, although I did hear both in the same room. As a result I can't express a preference. It's a tough call - the 242's are certainly a more expensive speaker, with more drive units and capabilities. I think 5-way active with dedicated amps and crossovers designed to harmonise with them is quite an advantage. But the Fact 8's are gorgeous to look at, so narrow and elegant, with a beautiful 1970's style wood finish. Considering there is probably not a world of difference between how musical each is, the look is surprisingly influential in the decision. I suppose you just have to listen to both and see how you feel. Quin-wiring the 242's made quite a difference too. One other factor is that I was replacing old Kans which I blow every time I have a party. I suspect ten amp channels driving 242's can belt out dangerous levels more easily than the Fact 8's could, but perhaps someone will correct me on that.

I would guess that appropriateness for the upstream components would also be a big factor. You might find that some amps sound great with one pair, while other sound better with the other.
 
Having owned the AP Avanti mkIII I can't really imagine things getting much better so I'd be tempted to recommend the mkV, although I have no experience of the other speakers. The APs bought new will lose a huge chunk of cash should you want to sell them on, though, so I'd suggest only buying s/h. Probably true of most hifi but worth mentioning because at this level the drop amounts to a serious amount of cash...
 
I hope to be having a Fact8 vs 242 demo in the next few weeks, local dealer tells me he holds both, but the 8's are out on home loan at present..... Heard the 8's several times now, and they always came top, though don't put them with a Naim 500 system. So amp matching is probably quite important. (I'm normally trying them with Linn kit).
My fear is the 242 will need to be active, 10 channels plus cards gets expensive, and then isn't a fair comparison to a 4.7K passive speaker.... I'll be driving my choice with one Klimax Chakra Twin.

I heard the PL range, they were good, but I couldn't make my mind up, they felt to impressive, more Hi-Fi less music, fear was over time they would be tiring.
I will have chance to try them again as another dealer has Fact8, PL's, Proac, Kef reference, which he praise above the others.

The other brand to try is Audiovector, has a stunning ribbon tweeter, for me better than all of the above, I only heard the small S1 stand mounts. They have updated them all since then. So I'm keen to revisit them, as the bass was the weakness, which is one of the updates I'm told. Plus I want to hear the S3 Arrete.

Gut feel tells me it will be Fact8 or Audiovector...... but who knows :)
 
Thanks guys, this turns out to be highly informative - and the PL300 has dropped off the list. So now it's the Audio Physic Avanti v (second hand) versus the new Fact.8 (Guess once which one's the wife's little favorite...)

Any experience on sound and system matching is well appreciated (for the PMC apparently the distributor prefers Bryston, AP I have no clue apart from some listening - could the latest Rotel 1580 do them justice?). With the AP I could buy the Marantz 30y silk black version of their top CD player and integrated amp, which would set me back an additional 3K£ - this seems a bit much, especially seen in the light that the actual reason I'm on this forum is the new audiolab 8200 cdq ;-)

cheers,
Wouter
 
I've had success driving the Fact 8's with Linn Akurate amps, and the Rega Osiris, and not good with Naim 500 amps/system...... With near 5K worth of speakers I think you want to match carefully and not cut any corners, as the 8's are going to be very revealing of any short falls further up the chain in my view.
 
My fear is the 242 will need to be active, 10 channels plus cards gets expensive, and then isn't a fair comparison to a 4.7K passive speaker.... I'll be driving my choice with one Klimax Chakra Twin.

Let me just repeat in case you missed it: I'm using a pair of active Linn 5125's for about 2500 quid used, all in. That's about 6K for amps, active cards, and 242's. With Fact 8's (probably only available new) that budget would have left £1300 for power amps, and I really don't think Fact 8's with a £1300 amp would compete with 10 channels of active power amp into 242's, even if they are only Linn AV channels. Clear upgrade path with Akurate 2200/4200 or Klimax Twins which you can drop in piecemeal due to all Linn amps having the same gain. It's a persuasive combination if you can tolerate the shame of Linn. Active has its advantages: not wasting 50% or more of your amp power.
 
Sure active is better, addictive and I run active speakers in another room. But I wanted to run a less boxes Klimax set-up in a second room. ( As you know you can't add Twins without running a tune box in an active system). So then the cost has now gone through the roof.

2x 5125 active vs KCT would be an interesting demo. Looking forward to my 242 demo, last time I heard them they were in Mk1 spec, and with 10 channel passive they disappointed...... If nothing passive works for me I may need a rethink to get active.

No shame in Linn..... house is full of it ;)
 
when auditioning hifi - most especially speakers it is easy to get ''hooked'' into a couple of products -

should I buy A or B ?

what about C - Z ? - there are so many products out there .. my best reccomendation would be to listen, listen, listen - go to show after show, keep your money in your pocket.

I would add Magnepan 3.6 to the list, aswell as some 15" Tannoys. Some Harbeths would be good, some Quads. Proac and Audionote worth a mention. Living Voice may float your boat. Hyperion speakers offer a lot for your $$. There are so many more, but most shops don't sell it all.

Certainly, if I could do the last ten years again, I would skip about 4 pairs of speakers.
 
Some good advice here.

Another way of looking at things (and something I should have done myself) may be to try to listen to different types of speakers (e.g electrostats, horns, sealed box, transmission line etc) before narrowing on a handful of specific speakers of a specific type. Alot more variables involved, but should hopefully lead to less "what ifs" after you've made your purchase.

Re: PMC's - I havent heard the Fact8's, but would say for the amount you're looking at for new Fact8's you could probably score an IB2 or MB2 for that price with some digging around (albeit not the new i models). Don't know how big your room is etc, but something to think about and particularly given the very good mid unit used in the IB2, MB2 and BB5. Re: amplification, alot of people (including studios) partner PMC's with bryston SS amps - good, clean, reliable power is what the bigger PMC's need. But in that scenario, you might consider a valve pre to mix things up a bit (although Bryston SS pre's are actually quite good).

Cheers
Adrian
 
Well since the summer I've listen to about 20 different speakers, so I don't think I'm focused on just a couple of models. Room is now (I just moved to bigger place) 3.2 x3.8m, and so don't want something that stands in the middle of the room. Heard some "maggie's" at the recent Whittlebury show, interesting...
Other PMC didn't don't do it for me, Fact 8 doesn't sound like other PMC at all.

Generally most brands sound like they are voiced for Naim amp.. and have the same generic boxy honking forced "Hi-Fi" sound.....I want to listen to music not Hi-Fi.
Three speakers to stand out from the crowd are the 8s, Kudos and Audiovector...... So far.

Amps are not negotiable, I've made my choice, love them or loathe as some do, but the Linn Klimax Kontrol pre and Klimax Chakra Twin are a darn fine pre-power.
I'm not a box swapper type. ;).
So speakers are being chosen to match the amps.

To Wouters issue, from what I found, and as Sonddek said, the pairing of amp and speakers is very critical, there are some nice speakers about, but no guarantee you will like them with your chosen amps or system.

Perhaps choose the speakers you want or like, or have sign off for ;) and then work backwards matching the best amp........
All good fun trying out the kit :D
 
Perhaps choose the speakers you want or like, or have sign off for ;) and then work backwards matching the best amp........
All good fun trying out the kit :D

That's exactly the line I'm following here. Auditioned different PMCs but they sounded too dull for me (great as tools for sound engineering, less for listening and enjoying music). The cheaper monitor audios were not too bad in the detail but got fatiguing and even harsh when pushed. Add to that that my room is lacking a bit in 'absorbing' and that's a no-no.

Both Fact.8 and the Audiophysic Avanti combine a great level of detail with satisfying coherence and allow you to be moved by the music. None of them sound 'romantic' though as the B&W sound to me. Heard KEFs (too bland for me), Focal (too cluttery), Burmester (no bass), and a couple electrostats (sound great, until you try playing 'Fit but you know it' by The Streets...)

The Fact has the enormous clarity, the Avanti is more engaging, has the bigger soundstage and is a little more relaxing. -> I'm well aware that they will take different amps to make them sound their best, which is why I audition them now with the 2,3 'best' amps according to info.

My hearings so far:
PMC F8 w Bryston: great, transparant, powerful. Great match but maybe just a little on the lean side.
PMC F8 w Yam757: lacks the bass a little, less open soundstage, some coloration BUT still great sound (shows these F8 are not hard to drive imo)

Avanti v/McIntosh: very very good sound. Powerful, tight but still musical.
Avanti v/Musical Fidelity: too dark and a much more 'closed' sound to my ears
Avanti v/Bryston 4B SST-> on my to do list next!
Avanti v/Yam757 -> sucks. Just not capable of handling this.

My personal opinion: I would pair the Avanti with a 'crisp' sounding amp that allows the detail to shine and that is very powerful and controlling. McIntosh, Bryston or even Naim (of which I'm no big fan but here it could work).

PMC: need amps that help create the soundstage and coherence, I would like to hear these with Accuphase or Densen, perhaps MF if the budget doesn't allow the first 2.

Of course: any advice more than welcome!
 
And...it's the Fact.8 that take the prize. Wife's happy too ;-)

Heard the Audio Physic Avantis at home - didn't sound bad and a bit more relaxing, but they lacked the dynamics and ultimate detail I heard with PMC/Bryston. They sounded just a little less 'true' in terms of tonality/coloration as well. Their superior soundstaging didn't fall into place either, even after extensive experimenting with placement. I think they probably do need a fair bit more space to their sides than the PMCs - or require a relatively greater absence of room reflections.

As soon as the Facts arrive and are played in, I'll be auditioning some more amps - and I _do_ also intend to try these at the end of the long awaited 8200 CDQ (to see if it matches up to the benchmark DAC/Pre that is playing some Keith Jarrett right now :).

I believe it will be a mighty challenge to best the Bryston 3Bs in this combo - at least within the same price range...
Thanks for all your kind help and let me know which (power) amps to audition!
 
Excellent....... please to hear you found something that fit's your requirements... They still head my list, with a couple more demo's to do before deciding.
Try a Linn amp, they matched well when I have tried them.
 


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