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Anyone tried blind testing DACs?

O

onlyconnect

pfm Member
Listening to the Beekhuyzen video on hi-res got me thinking. His line is that the DAC makes a big difference, and I realised that while I have done a lot of blind testing of different formats (difference resolutions, PCM vs DSD) at Scalford and elsewhere, as well as the notorious Naim vs Yamaha amplifier comparison, I have never tried blind-testing DACs. Perhaps quite an effort to set up but would be interesting. Say, smartphone vs cheap DAC vs high-end. Do many such tests exist?

Still impressed with my Sony NW-A105 portable player - at £280 it’s not even high end by Sony standards, but it does seem to sound better than a smartphone, and if it does, it’s probably the DAC that makes the difference.

Tim
 
Over the years I have personally found 'blind testing' to be a waste of time for a variety of reasons. If one item is better than another I should immediately hear it and my interest shouldn't wane over a week or two. Otherwise you get into quality 'wine tasting'. They are all good but different and I would choose depending on the occasion, food and mood. With wine I can buy a case of each but with HiFi?

Cheers,

DV
 
Yes, most recently the soncoz sgd1 and the smsl400. Level matched as best possible with the 1db step size on their vol controls there was a feeling that one was vaguely tighter in the bass and the other maybe a hair sweeter at the top. I didnt bother to try and identify of prove it though, the differences I thought I could hear were utterly trivial, ie not worth fussing about.
 
sq225917 said:
Yes, most recently the soncoz sgd1 and the smsl400. Level matched as best possible with the 1db step size on their vol controls there was a feeling that one was vaguely tighter in the bass and the other maybe a hair sweeter at the top. I didnt bother to try and identify of prove it though, the differences I thought I could hear were utterly trivial, ie not worth fussing about.
Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks. Sorry I don’t know the models, similar price? High end?

Tim
 
Blind testing is irrelevant in this field, unless the listener is already blind.

Senses are combined in those that have them all, removing one or two of them, will distort the perception till the brains neuroplasticity adjusts, which dosen't happen immediately.

Once upon a time 'scientists' thought that the brain was 'fixed' thus leading to opinions that blind testing would have relevance. Old fashioned science.
 
The soncoz is a couple of hundred cheaper, but lacks a numeric volume display, if that sort of thing matters.
 
Astonishing that blinding is used pretty much everywhere else to eliminate bias but that some argue it is not good methodology when trying to assess hi-fi without bias.

My personal experience has been that those who argue against blinding fear they have most "face" to lose when forced to use their ears and nothing else.
I've witnessed so called "gurus" who, when blinded, were unable to hear when a pair of speakers were out of phase. Same goes for Mp3 vs FLAC.

Where possible, I insist on blinding; I want to be confident I can hear where my money is going.
 
And there in lies the problem...blind listening;
You see as a species we have ‘developed’ to a point where we can outwit natural selection. For millions of years those who needed to be blindfolded to decide if they like one thing better than the other wouldn’t have made it far enough to reproduce. Apple or orange? Ooo put a blindfold on to choose...Lion runs up behind you a rips you apart... Soon we’ll be over run with them.
Although to be fair I did blindfold myself earlier as I couldn’t decide between the plain and Peshwari naan...I did get strange looks from the rest of the customers but hey...I wasn’t gonna risk making a mistake :rolleyes:
 
flutteringwow said:
Once upon a time 'scientists' thought that the brain was 'fixed' thus leading to opinions that blind testing would have relevance. Old fashioned science.
Click to expand...

So you can't hear properly unless you can see some aspect of the playback chain? Which part? What if you can see the amp but not the speakers? What if you can see the DAC but not the amp? What if you could just see, say, a corner of the amp, would that do? Do you need the cover off the amp or is it OK just to see the fascia? What if the innards behind the fascia were changed in a hidden manner, would blind testing work then? How would the neuroplasticity of the brain (your term) know that the innards had been changed? I really think that if you want to persuade us that blind testing does not work because we need to see (something unspecified) in order to discriminate, you will need to be a lot more precise :)

Or there may be a misunderstanding. In order to do "blind testing" you do not have to close your eyes or darken the room. You can use your eyes as much as you like. You can listen to A as much as you like. You can listen to B as much as you like. You can know all about the specs and brand and price of A and B. Then you have X played, and you know it is either A or B but not which one. All you have to do, is to say which it is.

Tim
 
SteveH said:
Astonishing that blinding is used pretty much everywhere else to eliminate bias but that some argue it is not good methodology when trying to assess hi-fi without bias.

My personal experience has been that those who argue against blinding fear they have most "face" to lose when forced to use their ears and nothing else.
I've witnessed so called "gurus" who, when blinded, were unable to hear when a pair of speakers were out of phase. Same goes for Mp3 vs FLAC.

Where possible, I insist on blinding; I want to be confident I can hear where my money is going.
Click to expand...
Very much this, remember however that unsighted comparison ( level matched if necessary) is only used to determine if there is any difference between two components.
Once you have determined there is a difference you can decide your preference by any methodology you prefer.
Keith
 
sq225917 said:
The soncoz is a couple of hundred cheaper, but lacks a numeric volume display, if that sort of thing matters.
Click to expand...

Got it. Looks like about $450 for the Soncoz and $800 for the smsl 400 (not sure about UK prices). I suppose that counts as mid- to high-end.

Tim
 
Yes done blind testing of DACs. Very useful. I like to do it combination with sighted listening. They each inform the other IME.
 
Purité Audio said:
Very much this, remember however that unsighted comparison ( level matched if necessary) is only used to determine if there is any difference between two components.
Once you have determined there is a difference you can decide your preference by any methodology you prefer.
Keith
Click to expand...
Which of the components you sell have you selected on the basis of a blind test?

Which of the DACs you sell can you discriminate reliably in a blind test?
 
sq225917 said:
Yes, most recently the soncoz sgd1 and the smsl400. Level matched as best possible with the 1db step size on their vol controls there was a feeling that one was vaguely tighter in the bass and the other maybe a hair sweeter at the top. I didnt bother to try and identify of prove it though, the differences I thought I could hear were utterly trivial, ie not worth fussing about.
Click to expand...

Though if you had tossed an M-Dac into the mix.
 
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