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Anti Woke movement grows

Discussion in 'off topic' started by ks.234, Jun 9, 2021.

  1. oldius

    oldius Can pleasure be measured?

    As far as I am aware, to be woke means to be awake, aware of what is happening in the world. That surely cannot be cancelled but it has certainly been manipulated to seemingly mean something that it does not.

    'Woke - alert to injustice and discrimination in society, especially racism.'
  2. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

  3. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    I guess that some people, racists, feel they are being bullied by having their cosy and selective notions of our glorious past questioned by the ugly realities of our historic dependence on slavery and colonialism.
  4. MVV

    MVV pfm Member

    Supporting social and racial justice is obviously a good thing and it is heartening that young people are leading in this. Taking a photo of the queen down because it represents something that you disapprove of is fine by me although I would have preferred seeing it incorporated into a collage which tried to articulate the reasons for disapproval.
    And it’s something like that I’d like to see happening around stuff like the statues thing. The statue of Mary Seacole outside St Thomas’s being a good example. How about commissioning something like new doors at Oxford that could act in balance or even let Banksy have a go.
    In the end it would be a shame not to be able to walk through a city and be reminded of where we’ve been and what has happened there.
    Rockmeister and ks.234 like this.
  5. Cheese

    Cheese Bitter lover

    It might depend on your point of view.
  6. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    I don't see that. If the situation had been some people saying 'take down that picture of the Queen or we will beat you up', that would be bullying. Instead, a vote was taken, overwhelmingly in favour of taking the portrait down but those on the losing side, instead of accepting the decision, went and whined to the press about it. Where is the 'bullying'?
  7. Cheese

    Cheese Bitter lover

    At the campuses the result is exactly the same as here on pfm. If you are not openly woke, you are a Nazi with exclusions/disvantages that might go with it, and in order to avoid this, you call yourself and behave woke.

    Actual progress for people who could deserve more social justice (and are rarely found on campuses anyway) = nil.
    Curtis likes this.
  8. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    If someone is not prepared to take a stand against racism and bigotry they are at the very best a coward. There really is no other way of looking at it as everything else is in some way justifying or excusing such behaviour. Political extremism only ever gains traction when good people turn a blind eye. It really is time for people to decide which side they are on. There really is no middle ground here.

    PS I’m talking in general, I don’t give a shit either way about a picture of some self-professed monarch. This is about the political right trying to shut-down anti-racist, anti-LGBT+, and environmental protest.
  9. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    I’m confused. You often seem to suggest that more social justice is a good thing, but also appear to denigrate those speaking up for social justice just as often.

    Could you clarify?
  10. Kirk

    Kirk pfm Member

    Not sure if this is serious but there is something to it in that both sides of the political spectrum 'weaponise' words. And it seems the more extreme one’s political views the more intense the weaponisation. Boring, sensible centrists tend to stay away from this stuff.

    Woke - being to up date and aware of/sensitive to social issues (e.g racism, but there are many others) is, or was, a positive development but it has now morphed into a gateway trigger for the culture wars and is often used by both sides to beat (bully) the opposing team. This turns people off legitimate political debate.

    Re: Oxford, both sides have a point but the whole episode portends to a world in which students want/demand protection from things - words, ideas, history, books, statues, etc. - they don’t like which undermines one of the main reasons for going to university.
  11. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    What do you think the term “centrism” is?

    Anyway, a good reminder, as if we weren’t already surrounded with them, that the self-consciously Sensible Centrists will happily both-sides us into totalitarianism.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and ks.234 like this.
  12. miktec

    miktec unissued

    At best - a profound negativity verging on nihilism.
    At worst - just more of the usual RW propaganda.

    It denies the very positive aspects of an awareness of, and support for, disadvantaged groups of all kinds and the very real challenges they face (both on and off campus)

    It also denigrates the very real contribution of students and their activities in the 'real world' both before and after graduation and how essential their awareness is in supporting the self same disadvantaged communities in very real ways ...

    site: CharityJobs
    keywords: Graduate opportunity
    hits: 313

    Also consider the tangible and essential work being done by the likes of the Trussell Trust in the area of 'social justice' and their person requirements:
  13. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    No. First of all ‘woke’ resurfaced as a word during the Black Lives Matter movement in the wake of the many deaths of Black People at the hands of white policemen. This is not an issue where you can take a centrist ‘on the one hand, then on the other’ position. This is not an even handed issue. This is prejudice.

    If being centrist means not taking sides on a matter of prejudice then…well, I’m lost for words

    Second, with regards to the Oxford Issue. The idea that those who made a protest against slavery and colonialism are seeking protection from words, ideas, history and books is ridiculous. They are for a proper reading of those words and books. A reading of history and an understanding of ideas that includes slavery and colonialism. It is the anti wokers who want to deny history, who wish to exclude certain ugly truths from our words, ideas and books, and if you come down on this side of the argument, you are not a centrist, you’re something else
    mhv, Hook, Nick_G and 2 others like this.
  14. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    FWIW I’ve always viewed the word ‘centrist’ to be economic, i.e. to exist somewhere on the axis between unregulated free-market capitalism and Marxism/communism, as in reality most people do. The Labour left seem to like to use it as a trigger word these days, mainly to attack the bigots, nationalists, trough-feeders and extremists that have always existed in their own decaying party, but I don’t accept their definition. You certainly can’t take a ‘centrist’ position on racism, homophobia etc. There just isn’t one.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  15. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    To be fair, I have no view on centrism more generally, only to say that if it means not taking a stand on prejudice, then I’m lost for words. It is however true that I have no time for the centrists in the Labour Party, but that’s another story and one that’s already been told
  16. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Are we not living in a time of extremes? Of powerful governments taking steps towards excluding certain people.

    How many more steps? How many more people excluded?

    Do we as a nation want to be governed by the politics of exclusion? Or do we want the politics of inclusion?

    It is starting to feel to me that the divisions in our society are growing, and at the same time being manipulated. As divisions grow, presuming they do, where then is the centre ground?

    Do we want the politics of “All for one, and one for all”, or the politics of, “sorry, but you can’t come in here wearing that old boy”.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  17. Cheese

    Cheese Bitter lover

    The word 'bigotry' has been over-used so much by so meany people, it has become just as meaningless as 'woke'. Some days ago I exposed my own version of the meaning of 'woke', but meanwhile I have to admit there are far too many ways to describe it. Racism: I take some action by giving language lessons I already wrote about here, and generally by trying to behave properly with people who behave properly too, no matter how they look or sound. LBGT+: same thing.

    Tony, if you want to filter out one thing about me, it is that I see little point in following ideologies, especially so when it's bordering fanaticism. Let me give you an example, which is conveniently about environmental protest.

    In my town an old brewery was shut, and instead of selling the centrally located land to a housing development consortium, at a juicy profit of course, it was decided to turn it into a technology center. From the onset, it was decided that the the climate was to be an essential part of the project, and several of the start-ups involved are active in this domain. To further underscore this mindset, Extinction Rebellion was allowed to set up its local headquarters there. They tend to be rather noisy at times, which is a hassle for engineers trying to concentrate, but so far tolerance is the word.
    What became more of a problem is the protest these very XR members organised last Black Friday in front of a local shopping mall, blocking the access, shouting even at people who just walked by, some having been spat on (oh nice). Now we all agree that Black Friday is one of the most stupid things ever invented, personally I have never bought anything on that day even online, and I never will.
    The buzz lasted for months on social media, often negatively because the behaviour of some members was simply abysmal, and the matter found itself several times on the front page of our two regional papers. The people who got spat on is the lesser problem - the main consequence of this action is currently its potential effect on the planned financial injection of roughly 25 million Euro, and in Switzerland the population votes for such things (it is due on Sunday). Needless to say that the financial injection (to a place where XR has its headquarters and where technologies are developed for environmental solutions, remember) meanwhile looks compromised, we'll see on Sunday evening.
    If the outcome of the vote is negative, it would be a brilliant example for a protest that shot itself in the foot big time. Total idiots, sorry. That's why, instead of a water-headed rebellion, I far prefer when a few XR members with a minimum of brain substance politely knock at the door of local councillors who are the ones who have the power to actually do something.

    You are a vegetarian, Tony, you are not particularly militant about it, but the result is that less meat will be produced thanks to you, and many others who just eat vegetables and shut up. I prefer this by far to the militant vegan who becomes vegan only because her best friend is, but who still eats a good sausage time and again when nobody looks. Rebellion which is just done for PR or personal advantage, and not meant honestly, is the one I despise the most. A German three-starred car maker boasting about protecting the climate (cars with 500+ horsepower, a joke) and printing multicoloured brochures feigning some interest in LBGT+ matters (but only visible in Western countries and not in the Middle East, where after all they could sell a few less cars you know). Hypocrisy in a form so pure that to me, it would be a reason never to buy one, even if I could afford it.

    I am definitely for more social justice and I try to act accordingly when interacting with people, but surely I don't always succeed, and all too often I look for myself first. But that's a lot of people, and wearing a woke t-shirt, or shouting woke stuff on the web, will not change anything anywhere. The term has become meaningless anyway, so if ever, I would wear a t-shirt with something more concrete, like "Put high-profile bankers in prison". Again, me wearing it would help no-one, but if Roger Federer did (especially so as he is from the same country as the bankers I am talking about), it would probably have more weight.

    Neither, nor. And I've briefly looked at your two pages, why should I not be in favour of such actions ?

    There we agree, but on many other topics the centrist way is the only one to really achieve something long-term-oriented. The problem you have in the UK is the radically two-sided (and flawed, I agree by now) system you have, one side systematically destroying what the predecessors did. Over the years I've sensed that the political climate in the UK is a disaster for a nation supposed to be a modernist one. I still believe that Brexit could have been handled in a much better way than it currently is, the efficient vaccination program being more or less the only news about a positive Brexit effect we get from you guys here on the continent.
    Curtis likes this.
  18. Frizzy

    Frizzy Liberal anarchist

    Last year I commented to a friend that ‘taking the knee’ would be unlikely to survive intact with fans present.
    Looks like I’m right; personally feel those who are sympathetic don’t like being lectured and racists use it as a opportunity to create trouble.
    Is there a better way?
  19. windhoek

    windhoek The Phoolosopher

    How about giving two fingers to racism? That way nobody needs to take anything, they simply giving strong message!
  20. oldius

    oldius Can pleasure be measured?

    I cannot see any reason, whatsoever, to criticise those who take the knee to draw attention to racial injustice. In my experience, objectors will make a plethora of excuses to cover for what, in my view, they are.
    Nick_G, Bob Edwards, sean99 and 7 others like this.

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