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Anti-vaccine protesters… why?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Tony L, Oct 23, 2021.

  1. mandryka

    mandryka pfm Member

    Medics, scientists, may have lost the trust of some large groups. They may believe that the establishment scientific community is not necessarily working for their best interests, they’re working for the best interests of industry and government - which functions to oppress them rather than help them to flourish. This is the tone of many of the Anti vax videos I’ve seen, which try to use the historical record to support this distrust of science (for example Robert F Kennedy Jnr.’s film Medical Racism: The New Apartheid.)

    Medical Racism: The New Apartheid - Medical Racism (

    Add to this the fact that the pandemic has shown everyone how difficult it is to know which medics to trust, to separate the good guys from the less good - think Didier Raoult, the signatories to the Great Barrington Declaration.

    And a third thing - I wouldn’t underestimate the influence of religion in some groups - who may trust traditional therapists more than scientists because of their faith in talismans, incantations and prayers, herbs and rituals.
  2. dweezil

    dweezil pfm Member

    NHS data last week iirc.

    Pregnancy puts a lot of stress on the body, a bit like having an illness or preexisting condition.

    Get immunised for Covid and a few other infections before you get pregnant, additional benefit being that your child is then protected from birth, esp if you breastfeed for a while.
    tonerei likes this.
  3. Andrewxyz

    Andrewxyz pfm Member

    The Guardian did a piece on it a while back.
    Tony L likes this.
  4. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    I rode past a church in Hackney a few months back that had a banner outside saying something like 'Trust in God and He'll protect you from Covid'.

    Fatmarley and darrenyeats like this.
  5. tonerei

    tonerei pfm Member

    Thanks you prodded me to go googling :)

    I know over here they were preventing spouses from visiting hospitals. There was a bit of noise around it but what transpired was a lot of pregnant women and their partners had not got vaccinated. To bring the point closer to Tonyl's question the footballer Callum Robinson went public on not having the vaccine. Transpires a lot of footballers are not getting vaccinated for a variety of reasons including believing it would make them sterol, wariness of putting drugs in their bodies and belief that being elite athletes they are well able to deal with covid.
  6. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    The idea of 'elite athletes' being 'wary of putting drugs into their bodies' brings a whole new meaning to the term 'cognitive dissonance'.
  7. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    Let me put it another way.. Various estimates put the percentage of people already infected with Covid in the UK at anywhere between about 10% and 25%. The ADULT population is more or less 50 million. Lets just go with very roughly 10% total infections..almost certainly an underestimate, but it will do for this point. Let's call it 5 million for simplicity.
    So, estimated ADULT least 5 million. Deaths at least 150000. I make that 3%.
    Estimated adult vaccinations.. 45 million over 12s double jabbed. Of those, less than 10 died as a directly proven result of the vaccine. There may be more, but not huge numbers:

    The conclusion is clear. The virus has been 'tested' on somewhere between 10 and 25% of the population and killed 150000+. The vaccines have been tested on 90% of the population and killed less than 10 (confirmed).possibly a few more to be proven.
    Those are your odds. None of us have the luxury of time in making these decisions, and as has been ably pointed out upthread..these vaccines are the result of cumulative development for ovr 30 years.

    Sorry, on reviewing my post, that point was (unintentionally) misleading.. but there is still a worrying issue. It's claimed to be 1 in 6 of the most sick patients in hospital... those on ECMO treatment. So, not 1 in 6 of hospital deaths or other metrics.. but still sobering.
    tonerei likes this.
  8. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    A lot of these reservations might be based on false premises but they’re not exactly unreasonable. And it’s interesting to consider the views of “exceptional” cases like pregnant women and athletes because they’re probably not that exceptional really. They’re probably quite representative of people who have concerns about their bodies for one reason or another. For instance people who are in poor health or who have recently recovered from serious illness think a lot about what has been done to them and what their bodies can handle, and when. (I have one friend who’s putting it off until his body has a chance to get “back to normal” after successful cancer treatment.) These people can be reached. Not everyone dodging the vaccine is “anti-vaxx” as such.
  9. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    Sean, you are describing 'vaccine hesitancy', which is indeed undestandable, but pointing people to the real facts, as opposed to the Anti Vax lunacy ought to help.
  10. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Yes, but I think the facts need to be carefully selected and sensitively framed to suit the concerns of specific audiences, and the campaigns well targeted. Maybe this is happening already - it’s unlikely I’d know about it, if the targeting is efficient! If it’s not there’s no excuse: if there’s one thing we know this government can do it’s targeted, persuasive comms on Facebook.
    Mullardman likes this.
  11. mikemusic

    mikemusic pfm Member

    From New Scientist April 2021
    Research in the Netherlands shows a *flu* jab decreases your risk of Covid by up to 40%
    Ongoing to see if a BCG jab also reduces Covid risk

    How about that anti vaxxers ?
    Tony L likes this.
  12. mikemusic

    mikemusic pfm Member

    I am of an age that puts me nicely at risk.
    20s or 30s I might think about it
  13. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    For me, the risk of death, given my age and health profil, far outweighs any risk from the vaccine. It's a no brainer. Also, as I understand it, as the ratio of older to younger unvaccinated has swung towards younger.. deaths from Covid have also swung towards younger people.
  14. canonman

    canonman pfm Member

    Excellent. I waited patiently in a long queue yesterday for my flu jab. The lovely NHS nurse kindly offered a booster as well.
    mikemusic likes this.
  15. Joe P

    Joe P Memory Alpha incarnate / mod


    Close, it was a thingy used to read text and images that were stored on a sheet of film.

    If you used microfiche at any point in your life you can safely say, "Well, in my day..." when the kids complain about some deficiency in modern technology.

  16. clivem2

    clivem2 pfm Member

    My wife was desperate to be vaccinated due to her successful cancer treatment. Many cancer treatments reduce your immunity across the spectrum so she felt extra-vulnerable. Waiting for her body to re- normalise didn't make sense to my wife.
  17. Joe P

    Joe P Memory Alpha incarnate / mod

    < irony>
    I don't think we should downplay the importance of gaining natural immunity to deadly infectious disease, that thing we used to do before an understanding of immunology.
    < irony >
  18. clivem2

    clivem2 pfm Member

    True, it's lot to do with natural selection as the various Amazon tribes found out when the "civilised world" introduced them to the common cold. Ultimately I'm on board with the majority getting Covid when the most vulnerable are well protected and continue to be protected during the transition phase where Covid hopefully becomes just another yearly cold. To get to this point we all need to build our natural immunity whilst being protected from Covid's worst outcomes. This is just my layperson view as I have no expertise in this area.
    darrenyeats likes this.
  19. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    I was just being silly. They had one in the local library I'd play with as a kid. I wasnt doing important research - I just enjoyed seeing the text whizz past really quickly!
  20. Nick_G

    Nick_G pfm Member

    Personally, in that situation I'd be far more worried about the 'side effects' of catching COVID-19 than any potential consequences of having the vaccine...

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