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Amp dilemma, or is it speakers! Here I am again with the same issue.

music4nusic

pfm Member
In essence I have always had B&W speakers (27 years now) currently the 802 Diamond D2's. Yet the remaining elements of my system have evolved massively over the years while striving for the ultimate (to my ears). But there remains something missing. Because of this I have been on an endless search and a very expensive one at that, that has seen me buying, buying, buying, changing cables and different components from amps to decks to carts. I am starting to face the demon of demons and the forced contemplation that it may actually maybe my speakers that are what need changing. I did this same thing 3 years ago and stepped from B&W 803's to the 802D's. Here I am again.

To amplify (pardon the punn) on the course i was about to embark upon:

Firstly, let me say that the 802 diamonds thrill me in the lower frequencies and the treble i adore but there are times when the vocals become tiring and etchy and this seems to be attributed to the mid range Kevlar diaphragm (guessing). I have for years now refused to believe it could possibly be my speakers and yes that was probably based on my initial impressions years ago that for the money you just cant get better than B&W. Recently i contemplated my amplification set up might be the thorn in my side; and please lets not get into the debate of bi-amping but i am a believer. I have a Musical Fidelity AMS 50 driving the top end and 2 Musical Fidelity M8-700's driving the base. All into a Musical fidelity Primo pre-amp. Upon experimenting and swapping top to bottom it always resulted in the AMS 50 doing a more refined and airy presentation of either base or treble whichever it was attached to. Taking the Bi-amp out and returning to stereo (only the ams 50 driving all) it was more what Im after but lacking the punch probably as id just reduced the total power output significantly by removing the M8-700's from the equation. Now we all know the B7W's need a lot of umpff and the initial solution might seem to be to replace the M8's with another AMS 50, but you just cant get them any more.....despite searching.

That led me to consider replacing the M8's with valve mono blocks in order to replicate that very relaxed and yet solidly gripped presentation of the AMS 50. Icon audio 845's i thought, perhaps MB90's, who cares? The problem is; can i get to hear these things in my system!!! The answer is no. It just seems that dealers these days aren't interested in a 10k sale.

Then came the thought ....speakers....B&W have a new range of the diamonds out the D3's! So, here I am at a decision point and Im finding the process quite demoralising in that the dealers out there just dont seem interested in what must be a reasonable sale to grab. Home demo? "Are you kidding we want to sell we don't want to make an effort", well that's the impression I'm getting.

So I'm calling upon the wealth of knowledge and experience out there of my fellow PFM members, and here are my options:

Replace the M8-700's with some silky smooth valve mono blocks, while at the same time not wanting to dampen that tweeter on the 802's. Replace the B&Ws with.....wait for it.....I was considering either the new 802 D3's or, Triangle Magellan Quatuor, or, Focal Sopra n3?

One thing is for sure, I'm not making the same mistakes again by buying blind and if it means going to the European dealers to get a home demo then so be it, but I was hoping that you guys might have some experience of the items mentioned above and I welcome any opinion but would rejoice if this stumbled across a dealer who was interested in helping and potentially making a sale that would result in my system being resolved from the issue described herein.

Thank you in advance to all.
 
You definitely need to heart any 'possibles' at home,as your room plays a huge role in the overall sound quality.
I owned the original 802's and they were a difficult load, but the MF's are pretty capable aren't they, does their output ( almost ) double as the speaker's impedance halves?
Re valves again you would have to try them at your place with your speakers.
Whereabouts in the country are you, I would have thought dealers would be only too keen to demonstrate expensive kit.
Keith
 
Wow what a B&W Devotee!!

What sysyem have you heard that didn't make the ...

vocals become tiring and etchy

I'm just wondering what reference you are using for the sound you want to hear, but aren't achieving with the current setup?
 
At these prices it's simple. No home dem, no sale. Also the dem cannot possibly be half an hour with the salesman hanging over your shoulder, a minimum of a weekend, better a full week. I don't know what the mark up on speakers/amps is but if the dealer wants it you are entitled to a proper dem.
 
Re valves again you would have to try them at your place with your speakers.
Whereabouts in the country are you, I would have thought dealers would be only too keen to demonstrate expensive kit.
Keith

Hi Keith, Im in west sussex near gatwick. I just had a very informative and detailed conversation with one dealer which was so refreshing. With no names mentioned it's that honest and unreserved kind of presentation from a dealer who will get my custom. With a speaker and amp change in the offing we are talking potentially 20-30k(if not more) of trade and im amazed that there are not more people out there interested in it....from the majority Ive not even had my calls returned. It's this element of hi-fi buying that pushed me to the european market a few years ago and which i did post about here, but of course i go shot down in flames with the response.
 
I would advise listening to a range of different approaches rather than just more box swapping.
For me it would be big and efficient / horns, omni / pseudo omni, tiny monitors in the near field, and electrostatic panels. Once you have decided which of those ticks the most boxes then amps follow imo.

Jason
 
Can't help thinking that making a visit to 4 or 5 high-end dealers and listening in their dem room might at least help you ascertain what you're after and indeed if what you're after is possible at a price point. Yes you can't take their room and acoustics home but you can get a moment of smile factor (or not) and move on from there.
 
Choose the right speaker for you and your room and build your system around it.
As has been said previously, just swapping boxes will get you no where fast and will ultimately cost you considerably more in the long term.
 
In essence I have always had B&W speakers (27 years now) currently the 802 Diamond D2's. Yet the remaining elements of my system have evolved massively over the years while striving for the ultimate (to my ears). But there remains something missing. Because of this I have been on an endless search and a very expensive one at that, that has seen me buying, buying, buying, changing cables and different components from amps to decks to carts. I am starting to face the demon of demons and the forced contemplation that it may actually maybe my speakers that are what need changing. I did this same thing 3 years ago and stepped from B&W 803's to the 802D's. Here I am again.

To amplify (pardon the punn) on the course i was about to embark upon:

Firstly, let me say that the 802 diamonds thrill me in the lower frequencies and the treble i adore but there are times when the vocals become tiring and etchy and this seems to be attributed to the mid range Kevlar diaphragm (guessing). I have for years now refused to believe it could possibly be my speakers and yes that was probably based on my initial impressions years ago that for the money you just cant get better than B&W. Recently i contemplated my amplification set up might be the thorn in my side; and please lets not get into the debate of bi-amping but i am a believer. I have a Musical Fidelity AMS 50 driving the top end and 2 Musical Fidelity M8-700's driving the base. All into a Musical fidelity Primo pre-amp. Upon experimenting and swapping top to bottom it always resulted in the AMS 50 doing a more refined and airy presentation of either base or treble whichever it was attached to. Taking the Bi-amp out and returning to stereo (only the ams 50 driving all) it was more what Im after but lacking the punch probably as id just reduced the total power output significantly by removing the M8-700's from the equation. Now we all know the B7W's need a lot of umpff and the initial solution might seem to be to replace the M8's with another AMS 50, but you just cant get them any more.....despite searching.

That led me to consider replacing the M8's with valve mono blocks in order to replicate that very relaxed and yet solidly gripped presentation of the AMS 50. Icon audio 845's i thought, perhaps MB90's, who cares? The problem is; can i get to hear these things in my system!!! The answer is no. It just seems that dealers these days aren't interested in a 10k sale.

Then came the thought ....speakers....B&W have a new range of the diamonds out the D3's! So, here I am at a decision point and Im finding the process quite demoralising in that the dealers out there just dont seem interested in what must be a reasonable sale to grab. Home demo? "Are you kidding we want to sell we don't want to make an effort", well that's the impression I'm getting.

So I'm calling upon the wealth of knowledge and experience out there of my fellow PFM members, and here are my options:

Replace the M8-700's with some silky smooth valve mono blocks, while at the same time not wanting to dampen that tweeter on the 802's. Replace the B&Ws with.....wait for it.....I was considering either the new 802 D3's or, Triangle Magellan Quatuor, or, Focal Sopra n3?

One thing is for sure, I'm not making the same mistakes again by buying blind and if it means going to the European dealers to get a home demo then so be it, but I was hoping that you guys might have some experience of the items mentioned above and I welcome any opinion but would rejoice if this stumbled across a dealer who was interested in helping and potentially making a sale that would result in my system being resolved from the issue described herein.

Thank you in advance to all.
Avoid B & W speakers & valves
 
why not try a used pair of wilson audio sasha's , worked for me never looked back, and i guess they would go well with the MF gear,
 
I would urge you to hear a pair of RFC Tannoy Canterburys. These are made to order by Paul Coupe, who uses HPD drivers in his own cabinet design with his own crossovers. They have the most effortless naturalism, richness and fine inner detail that I have heard in currently available speakers. A true marriage of vintage and modern virtues.
 
I would urge you to hear a pair of RFC Tannoy Canterburys. These are made to order by Paul Coupe, who uses HPD drivers in his own cabinet design with his own crossovers. They have the most effortless naturalism, richness and fine inner detail that I have heard in currently available speakers. A true marriage of vintage and modern virtues.

I do agree with your comments regarding the Tannoys. In all respects I think they exude reality in every department. Just one problem....i cant cope with something that looks like a broken up organ from a church hall....and the size is just too inconvenient for my listening area.
 
Paul makes the cabinets for the RFC Canterburys, so they don't have to look like your Great Grandad's wardrobe. I thought since you had massive B&Ws you'd be ok with the ginormity, but if not there are smaller options. At some point in the future, I'm looking at something in cabinets around the size of Chatsworths, which have fairly modest dimensions, and then I would get them RFC'd, as it were.
 


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