Amir vs Danny

[John Phillips]

What I do find ASR useful for is picking up issues of QC or corner cutting where there’s say gross channel imbalance, failure to meet claimed specification or performance generally that simply can’t justify the price tag. The zealotry among his acolytes is the off putting part.

Yes but there's a but ...

I rather agree. It's like John Atkinson in his measurement videos where he states that measurements reveal equipment makers who are not masters of their technology. I think he uses terms like hobbyists who have made a business of their hobby.

However "masters of their technology" implies some standard against which that is measured. It seems clear to me that there are many people out there who really enjoy equipment that does not measure up to the conventional standards. Some kit makers aren't masters of their technology for sure but some seem to deliberately choose less conventional standards.

Over many years I have found that the conventional standards work for me and I can use ASR, Stereophile, etc. tests to eliminate from my shortlist kit that performs "badly" or is just too expensive for what it does. Nevertheless I do still have preferences that are probably not accounted for in the conventional standards. So I listen anyway to stuff on the shortlist and decide then. For others its different.

IMHO it's really good that ASR, GR Research, etc. are there because they give you choice about what to take account of and what to ignore. They have their faults (as for all forums). I do find the occasional hostility strange although not entirely surprising.

 

[sls4321]

Yes but there's a but ...

I rather agree. It's like John Atkinson in his measurement videos where he states that measurements reveal equipment makers who are not masters of their technology. I think he uses terms like hobbyists who have made a business of their hobby.

However "masters of their technology" implies some standard against which that is measured. It seems clear to me that there are many people out there who really enjoy equipment that does not measure up to the conventional standards. Some kit makers aren't masters of their technology for sure but some seem to deliberately choose less conventional standards.

Over many years I have found that the conventional standards work for me and I can use ASR, Stereophile, etc. tests to eliminate from my shortlist kit that performs "badly" or is just too expensive for what it does. Nevertheless I do still have preferences that are probably not accounted for in the conventional standards. So I listen anyway to stuff on the shortlist and decide then. For others its different.

IMHO it's really good that ASR, GR Research, etc. are there because they give you choice about what to take account of and what to ignore. They have their faults (as for all forums). I do find the occasional hostility strange although not entirely surprising.

I liked the comment recently in the USA in those hearings that Trump told one of his advisers that there was massive voter fraud because he read about it on the internet. Trump said something along the lines that he was better at reading the internet than his Attorney General, or whoever it was.

ASR and GR Research are just people selling something on the internet, arguing with other people selling something on the internet. Most business and personal relationships are based on long term mutual understanding and respect. That does not apply to ASR and GR, or ASR and pretty much anyone. These spats have amusement value ... sometimes.

Call me old fashioned, but I use audio dealers, one in particular, listen to stuff, buy when it suits me. There is a lot of trust involved, never abused, and it gives me a lot of reward. I bought an Innuos server in 2019 purely on a list of specifications, but also on a very good conversation with their UK Sales Manager, Richard Coleman.

The thing I find astonishing about ASR is how few people have heard the stuff they comment on. I'd much rather hear from people on PFM who actually have used something.

 

[sls4321]

I love the way Amir says he’s out about $500/600 if his own money, despite always banging on about his $100,000 measuring machine…

Problem with Amir is that he never seems to take into account the intended use of less mainstream products like this. There’s never any attempt to understand what the design brief was, and just treats it the same as everything else. And when he comes up with his own measurements that don’t stack up to everything else, he pans it and starts the usual witch hunt among his disciples.

ASR is about measured performance, really nothing else. That only touches upon the design brief of many modern audio products, where software capability and ergonomics are increasingly the prevalent issues. ASR doesn't seem to recognise the reality of adequate performance - not the best - but perfectly fine.

I've read reviews of products I've heard or owned. A common theme seems to be to review an old or baseline product and then trash the whole brand. It's pretty ugly.

 

[sls4321]

It's because a large part of hifi is foo. Nobody talks about crossover components because they're part of the magic black boxes. But everybody thinks that they understand drivers, so they'll spend money there, and if course you're a fool if you don't buy the best cables, because the cables are in the signal path. Yet nobody upgrades crossovers. So let's carry on connecting £10 crossovers to £500 amplifiers with £200 cables. Honestly, this game is marketing bollocks sold to gullible people with money to burn. Carry on.

Harbeth SHL5 PLUS was a new product based purely on a cross-over upgrade, nothing else, with significant benefits. The crossover upgrade led to a new model of the M40.1 and more recent versions are primarily crossover component upgrades. The drivers and cabinets have been unchanged throughout.

 

[duckworp]

No one ever seems to mention it, but in Danny's speaker evaluations and upgrades, he never mentions listening to them at all, before or after. Also, I believe his "after" measurements are simulations.

I know nothing about Danny not his speakers. I just meant ASR are an odd bunch of acolytes.

 

[sls4321]

I know nothing about Danny not his speakers. I just meant ASR are an odd bunch of acolytes.

There's nothing wrong choosing hifi based only on measurements, it's quite rational. It's just setting out your stall that everyone else should do the same and they (we) are stupid and wasting piles of cash by not doing so. I think that winds people up.

I have lots of utterly useless things in my house that cost a pile of money - furniture, paintings, sculptures, even flowers in the garden - no practical purpose at all except that they give my wife and I a lot of pleasure.

I resent people telling others how to spend their money, I've even given up trying to tell my kids how to spend my money.

p.s. I got banned from ASR some years ago for saying I enjoyed listening to my Harbeth speakers. I suspect they did me a favour.

 

[Fretbuzz]

ASR is a bit odd. Noisy echo chamber of the
left-brained-only.

 

[Fatmarley]

Noisy echo chamber of the
left-brained-only.

What do you mean - "Left brained"?

 

[crimsondonkey]

ASR

Is just a Dunning-Kruger cess pit of self justification.

 

[Colin L]

Danny and Amir are loving this thread. People talking about them and generating clicks. Yum yum.

Really, who gives a toss what Danny and Amir think?

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Danny and Amir are loving this thread. People talking about them and generating clicks. Yum yum.

Really, who gives a toss what Danny and Amir think?

Danny and Amir of course!

 

[awkwardbydesign]

What do you mean - "Left brained"?

A 5 second google! https://www.dictionary.com/browse/left-brained

 

[sls4321]

Is just a Dunning-Kruger cess pit of self justification.

Thanks for that. Google explained it to me.

I realised a few years ago that the gap between my almost total lack of audio-related scientific knowledge, my formal scientific education ending at age 15, and sufficient knowledge to make meaningful observations and deductions about audio is so wide as to be unbridgeable. There are some people that do not appreciate that bods like me can't just pick up a book about science and understand it. So it's not just about effort or inclination.

Most of the people I know and meet at concerts are arty-farty types, lawyers, landed gentry, that sort of thing. Never met an electronic engineer. Never imagined you needed to know about science to enjoy home audio or music generally.

 

[Yank]

I've read reviews of products I've heard or owned. A common theme seems to be to review an old or baseline product and then trash the whole brand. It's pretty ugly.

Yeah, Amir seems to be dependent upon review samples that are sent to him by readers who own the equipment, not from the manufacturers. So sometimes he gets older versions.

 

[Fretbuzz]

What do you mean - "Left brained"?

Left Brain vs. Right Brain Dominance | Simply Psychology

 

[Somafunk]

Never imagined you needed to know about science to enjoy home audio or music generally.

You don’t at all but a background in electrical/electronic engineering and basic scientific principles does help to evaluate when products do not perform as the manufacturer states or when foo science is used in marketing blurb.

 

[Tony L]

Yeah, Amir seems to be dependent upon review samples that are sent to him by readers who own the equipment, not from the manufacturers. So sometimes he gets older versions.

And as such there is no guarantee the item is performing even remotely close to spec. It may have been thrashed at a party, repaired, altered, tampered with or anything for all Amir knows and as far as I’m aware there is no attempt to allow the manufacturer any comeback before very publicly slating the product. I admire his courage in some respects as I suspect it is only a matter of time before he gets sued! There is never any issue in stating a personal subjective opinion, but if you state something as a hard fact and it can be proven to be incorrect you are potentially open to a whole world of pain.

 

[sls4321]

You don’t at all but a background in electrical/electronic engineering and basic scientific principles does help to evaluate when products do not perform as the manufacturer states or when foo science is used in marketing blurb.

There is a presumption that people read all the marketing material. Personally, I generally don't. The last thing I bought was an RCM Sensor2 Mk2 phono stage. I'd tried something else and sent it back. I spoke to my regular dealer, he lent me one, I used it for a couple of weeks and ordered one. I never looked at the RCM website until after I bought it, and what they say is quite technical so it would probably have passed me by.
http://www.rcmaudio.pl/?action=oferta&fid=sensor&L0=sensor&L1=nn&of=0

A few years ago I wanted an all-in-one for my office with power as close to 100w as possible. I chose a Cambridge Audio CXA81 because, although stated to be 80w, I checked online and found that it had been measured at 93w. It did a lot for £900 (from the CA eBay factory refurbished store) and I was very happy with it. So I will agree that independent measurements can have their uses.

There are so many products, of which I suspect many are indistinguishable, that I am happy for a dealer to whittle down the choices. Increasingly the deciding factor seems to be software other than hardware. Occasionally you come across great bargains, I mentioned earlier today elsewhere the Vertere Phono Mk2. My dealer is big on Vertere, I bought a used one on PFM on the off chance and was very happy. The RCM is in another league.

 

[sls4321]

And as such there is no guarantee the item is performing even remotely close to spec. It may have been thrashed at a party, repaired, altered, tampered with or anything for all Amir knows and as far as I’m aware there is no attempt to allow the manufacturer any comeback before very publicly slating the product. I admire his courage in some respects as I suspect it is only a matter of time before he gets sued! There is never any issue in stating a personal subjective opinion, but if you state something as a hard fact and it can be proven to be incorrect you are potentially open to a whole world of pain.

I just looked up the ASR Harbeth review that got me banned. It was the Harbeth Monitor 30 25th anniversary speaker, made in 2002. He reviewed it in January 2020, so it would have been about 17 years old. I appreciate Harbeth are built to last, but I don't quite see the point of an objective assessment of a unit that left the factory almost two decades earlier. The ASR review stated that he had not listened to it.

 

[sls4321]

Doesn't seem very reviewy or sciencey to me, i don't know how you can be thorough if your posting a review virtually everyday, unless you are working with a team of people.
I'd be far less worried about being sued by manufacturers than i would be by using the Pink Panther, i'm not sure who owns the rights and perhaps the site owner has paid to license to use the Panthers image on the website? There are an awful lot of images of equipment with Panthers, probably just take images of the equipment on it's own in future would be my advice!

I bought my turntable 10 years ago. Jimmy Hughes had reviewed it in HiFi Choice. I'd met the manufacturer first off and was impressed by the build quality. I knew Jimmy and went to see him to discuss it. He'd had it in his system for 3 months before writing the review.

There are serious reviewers that do have units for a month or more, 3 months is probably exceptional, there are rumours of online reviewers getting loan kit over the weekend.