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Afghanistan withdrawal.

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Martyn Miles, Jul 4, 2021.

  1. Frizzy

    Frizzy Liberal anarchist

    The Americans have spent almost 2.4 trillion dollars on this pr exercise. They flew in plane loads of cash to bribe locals.
    Surely if that were delivered as aid a better outcome would have been possible.
    Bushes desperate urge to undo his fathers cockup has cost the world more than lives and money, the fear we now all carry that someone may bomb, stab or shoot in revenge for American imperialism and British complicity is ever present.
    The elephant next door, Pakistan, is a failed state ruled by a inbred feudal aristocracy that mainly live in London. As long as it exists and it’s state sanctioned religious schools continue to export extremists Afghanistan will fester along with large tranches of Sunni occupied lands.
    In addition most of the trouble caused in middle east and north and central Africa are Sunni radicals funded by Saudi money, again another disfunctional inbred family living the easy life in central London.
    Ps ironic that Rumsfeld died just as USA withers abroad.
     
    kensalriser and ks.234 like this.
  2. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    I don't think they want to be a government. I thought they were more interested in being the dominant force in an area run by several tribes or militias. Last I heard they were basically in charge of the area's opium trade, they lived by heavy taxation, for which I read extortion, of the various local leaders who traffic the stuff. If you can do this successfully, I can understand why you might not want to get involved in all that tiresome education, road building, healthcare stuff.
     
    Seeker_UK likes this.
  3. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    They just want to own the opium market, kill women, and exercise violent misogyny and homophobia as well as incredible hypocrisy ('man-love Thursday' isn't gay, honest) and generally returning Afghanistan back to the 11th century. Still that's Afghan culture, innit, and who are we to impose horrible, foreign values of decency?
     
    Big Tabs and Euan like this.
  4. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    We can't impose our standards within a sovereign state any more than they can impose theirs on us.
     
  5. Bart

    Bart pfm Member

    I wouldn’t disagree (except I’m not sure if they qualify as a sovereign state).
     
  6. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    I'm sorry but there are certain basic standards we should expect in any society.

    As for imposing, there's a lot of people in Afghanistan who have gladly taken a more Western approach to society, picking up where they left off 50 years ago and want to keep it. It's also worth noting they're not the ones jumping into technicals, driving off into the areas and beating and killing the population there until they adopt their lifestyle.
     
  7. hifinutt

    hifinutt hifinutt

    not a fan of our beloved ex cricket star then? In interviews he seems to acquit himself well
     
    Barrymagrec likes this.
  8. glenda

    glenda pfm Member

    Imran Khan is a grade a knob. He recently blamed the rise in male sexual violence on women due to them showing a mere modicum of flesh. Men just being men, according to him.
     
    Rob998 and RobGordon like this.
  9. misterdog

    misterdog Not the canine kind

    As with Yugoslavia, Algeria and Iraq, just ignore the genocide ?

    It appears that only a ruthless dictatorship can hold these countries together. Maybe our belief in democracy cannot work in certain countries.
     
  10. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    Yes, there certainly are standards that we can *expect*.
    1: What if they tell us to FO with regard to what happens within their borders?
    2. What are we doing about China, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc?
    3. What if Afghanistan *expect* "certain basic standards" of the UK ? Women to wear veils, etc. All to attend mosque on Friday. No music videos.
     
    Rob998, DimitryZ and tiggers like this.
  11. misterdog

    misterdog Not the canine kind

    Yes Russia tried and failed to 'tame' Afghanistan also.
     
  12. DimitryZ

    DimitryZ pfm Member

    No question about the last point.
     
  13. tones

    tones Tones deaf

    While I agree with what you say, this bit puzzles me. Bush Sr. had nothing to do with Afghanistan. And if you meant his stopping with kicking the Iraqis out of Kuwait, the fact is that he was wise to go no further than that, as he could see no exit strategy in going on to Baghdad. In addition, the Arab countries of the coalition that kicked out Saddam and insulated it against accusations of Western interference came on board with one condition - that Saddam would be left in power in Iraq. Why? Because he was the bulwark against their biggest headache, non-Arab Shiite Iran. And Bush Jr. and the neocons removed that bulwark, and Iran was the only winner of the US invasion of Iraq.
     
    Musicman19, DimitryZ and russel like this.
  14. Frizzy

    Frizzy Liberal anarchist

    The overarching question in the Middle East and Islamic culture is the fate of ‘political ‘Islam’ .
    Is the idea of western democracy compatible with political Islam, does Moslem culture need its own alternative or is religious dictat the only future?
    Islam has been arguing the principles of the Quo-ran and Hadith and mans rights for centuries and is still split, in many ways Islamic culture is where Christianity was In the Middle Ages. It is still rooted in mysticism and monarchy and yet to reconcile religion and independent thought.
    There is a further split in the contradictions between the quo ran and Hadith, which ultimately led to the fracturing of Islam into Sunni and Shia.
    The issue is so complicated it makes my brain hurt, Abraham and Ishmael have a lot to answer for.
     
    kensalriser likes this.
  15. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    1. That's for our politicians to sort out.
    2. You're not usually one for whataboutism, Steve.
    3. They can expect what they like. I'd be more sympathetic to their way of life if they didn't go around killing and brutalising people in the name of their religion.

    [edit]

    4. What's your view on what should happen to all of those in Afghanistan who've grown up with a degree of freedom and that don't want to live the lifestyle that the Taliban will force them to live, or get killed if they don't?
     
  16. Frizzy

    Frizzy Liberal anarchist

    Ps in what way did Iran win anything, it reacted against the imposed American dictator stupidly kidnapped a bunch of dodgy US gov employees and has been defending itself against Iraq, Saudi , and US vitriol ever since. They are no saints but the history of Sunni aggression and barbarism towards them is shocking.

    Virtually every terrorist attack in Europe has been by Sunni extemists not Shia, yes very active in parts (Lebanon) of Middle East but generally most of shit comes from Saudi and Pakistani (Sunni) sources.
     
  17. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Booyakashah, check out my avatar...

    It got to increase the size of the Shia Crescent and thus its influence in the region by moving into Iraq.
     
  18. JensenHealey

    JensenHealey pfm Member

    Russia had a go at sorting out the Afghans. (Not sure why they went there in the first place, mind you). Then ‘The West’ also failed. So seems obvious…. At some point the Chinese will do a Tibet on them.." perhaps when China gets rich enough to become a big enough Opium derivatives market, the Chinese govt will be forced to intervene.

    I am only half joking….
     
  19. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    Just a little reminder, the Taliban did reduce opium production to almost zero with UN help in 2000, apparently there are about twenty different groups calling themselves the Taliban now, it’s just warlords fighting it out, also the west should never of gone after the Taliban, the Taliban didn’t like Al-Qaeda but lacked the resources to do much about it as they were dealing with a famine at the time, In retrospect if the west had gone in really hard, really fast against al-qaeda and got out giving some aid to the Taliban to keep them quiet it might have ended a lot better.
     
  20. Mystic Mac

    Mystic Mac cauliflower ears not golden ears....

    as per Chomsky, follow the money.

    It will undoubtedly be found in the pockets of US military equipment/armament suppliers and associated contractors. That is a major reason why the occupation has lasted so long. The USA cares little of the plight of the Afghani.
     
    Richard Lines and wacko like this.

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