advertisement


Acetates etc: The In Groove vs. Analogue Planet. Fight!

Tony L

Tony L

Administrator
An interesting discussion/web fight developing between these two regarding both remarkably expensive audiophile acetates and remarkably expensive Electric Recording Company vinyl:




FWIW I’m mostly with the In Groove guy when it comes to acetates. As I record dealer I’ve come across a lot of them over the years, even sold a few through the pfm shop, and they do sound absolutely incredible. Really a level up from vinyl, but they are a soft medium and do wear pretty fast. That is just fact. I know its just YouTube and compressed digital sound, but I felt the two Michael Fremer played through that house-priced OMA turntable sounded pretty lacking in top end to my ears through my system (TV, passive pre, 303, Spendor S3/5R). That aligns with my experience of lacquers, they just get warmer with each play as the fine detail gradually gets eroded by the stylus. I’ve no idea how many plays they are good for without obvious degradation, but I’m pretty certain you’d hear a clear difference between 1, 25, 50, 100 plays etc. I bet tracking weight and stylus profile matters a lot too. Not something I’d want to play with a 103, SPU or whatever!
 
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
It's not as if ERC needed defending.
Not reflecting well on MF at all.
 
When audiophiles are making YouTube videos like this why don't they bother to capture the audio properly? i.e. a line out from their preamp into an ADC of some sort.

Mostly what I hear is Mr Fremer's speakers and room.
 
I assumed he was using a fancy ADC costing as much as a house. I’ve only listened on my TV rig, which whilst decent kit isn’t nearfield enough to really pick stuff apart.
 
Nope you're absolutely right Tony, it is direct out of his preamp. Not sure what I was thinking - I withdraw my earlier remark! Doh!
 
Did anyone watch? An hour and a half of people arguing over the value of Veblen goods was rather amusing, as was the structure of the thing. Michael Fremer came out fighting but gradually lost the argument on acetates to my perspective and was clearly angry about the accusation that his perspective on Electric Recording Company (£500 vinyl limited editions, not acetates) was tainted by having received what is now worth $50-100k of freebies.

FWIW I’ve got a lot of time for Fremer despite agreeing with him on comparatively little. I certainly don’t think he’s a bent reviewer. I do think his perspective is somewhat distorted by the obvious Veblen nature of the high-end of the modern audiophile market in which he almost exclusively lives these days. Once $200k record decks and $10k cartridges becomes in any way ‘normal’ reviewing as a concept finds itself in a very strange place. Like boiling a frog he doesn’t quite seem to grasp just how odd this whole market has become. The oligarch supercar, yacht and watch markets are the same. From a personal perspective I’d not make any attempt to prevent this market, but I’d also want nothing to do with it myself. It simply isn’t where I live/want to live as a music and audio collector/buyer. If I wanted to drop $500 on a copy of A Love Supreme I’d want nothing less than a close to mint RVG-cut US 1st press for that. I’d take that over any acetate, audiophile tape copy etc. It is the real thing with all its artistic intent and history intact.

I thought The In Groove Mike came across surprisingly well. He’s obviously a lot younger than the others (younger than I realised) and to my eyes brought a more grounded logical perspective. I tend not to agree with his record shootouts (we have diametrically opposed views on Japanese jazz cuts; I love them and tend to rate them next up behind a US 1st press (i.e. above most modern audiophile cuts), he pretty much hates them), but I found myself in agreement with most of his points here. He seems to have a good grasp on the younger vinyl market and customer perception of some of the high-price excesses.

Chad was hysterical as a moderator. He did very little in the early phases and then after about an hour in basically turned the stream into a shameless and relentless spam/plug for his own products. Actually had me laughing as it was just so shameless! He managed to make it all about his upcoming $500 reel to reel tapes! In the process he ended up burying Michael Fremer on acetates by bringing in a couple of Acoustic Sounds-related ‘experts’ (can’t remember who they were) who pointed out they not only wear but are subject to chemical changes, heat damage etc too.

I felt rather sorry for ERC as they really took a hammering here without being given a platform to defend themselves. I do certainly view them as Veblen goods, but there’s no law against that and they deserved more right to reply than Michael Fremer, who was largely trying to deny free records had influenced his rave reviews. There was little credible rebuffing of In Groove Mike’s accusations, and Chad pretty stuck the boot in as he was so obviously hard-selling Acoustic Sounds stuff.

Anyway, worth sticking on in the background if you have an hour and a half spare.
 
So much of YouTube has become tained by product placements and freebies. I was disappointed in Fremer, I normally appreciate his outspokenness and edgy delivery but this was a dumb battle to engage in on behalf of others...the In Groove chap clearly knows his business.
 
I cut it off after about 20mins...was hoping you'd provide a summary!
Thanks Tony.

P.S. Whenever I watch these U.S.-based Guys I always think about how lucky they are living over there for new and secondhand vinyl.
 
Weekender said:
P.S. Whenever I watch these U.S.-based Guys I always think about how lucky they are living over there for new and secondhand vinyl.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I’m sure like everywhere it is getting harder to find real bargains, but for me as primarily a jazz fan these days it is clearly the epicentre (with Japan second). I’d love to spend a day crate-digging in The In Groove, I bet he’s got tons of stuff of interest, but he really knows his pressings and pricings too, so I doubt there would be many real bargains. He is also very sharp too and sits on stuff, e.g. he has a big stack of original US original pressings of the Velvet Underground & Nico that he’s just banking until the price hits what he thinks it should be. We all do this to a degree, I have some stuff I’m sitting on, though nothing like that! I’d really like just one good original US copy of that one for myself!
 
Tony L said:
Agreed. I’m sure like everywhere it is getting harder to find real bargains, but for me as primarily a jazz fan these days it is clearly the epicentre (with Japan second). I’d love to spend a day crate-digging in The In Groove, I bet he’s got tons of stuff of interest, but he really knows his pressings and pricings too, so I doubt there would be many real bargains. He is also very sharp too and sits on stuff, e.g. he has a big stack of original US original pressings of the Velvet Underground & Nico that he’s just banking until the price hits what he thinks it should be. We all do this to a degree, I have some stuff I’m sitting on, though nothing like that! I’d really like just one good original US copy of that one for myself!
Click to expand...
Yes I bet we'd be better off in smaller stores, charity shops and yard sales!
 
To repeat what I wrote on SHF, I watched it from the start but had to bail about 50 minutes in because my cat was pestering me for a late night snack and I had to put the rubbish out etc although I did manage to rejoin about 10 minutes from the end since, to my amazement, it was still going!

I've enjoyed Michael Fremer's content and passion for vinyl over the years and found him amusing and very likeable, but in this stream I found him to be really irritating and couldn't quite believe how a supposedly mature man of 75(?) could behave like a petulant child with his interjections, attempts at sarcasm/ humour and beating (what were strawman) arguments to death.

With respect to ERC: sure, no-one presses 100% of records 100% perfectly (anyone that's seen a number of my posts on BN80/Classic/Tone Poets knows I know that!) but he seemed unable to grasp or acknowledge that there is a collosal difference between a 'regular' (albeit high quality) 3,000-5,000 pressing run of records at £35-40 a pop and a boutique, 300 unit run at £500 per copy.

And then with regard to the lacquers, he kept clinging to how good his sound which was pointless because no-one argued they don't: the debate was over (a) longevity and/or (b) whether they are a suitable item for which people should spend a not-insignificant amount of money with respect to point (a). For him to try and bolster his argument by comparison to the longevity of 1/4" tape was a bit desperate. Of course tapes wear and we don't really know how a modern-day formula will hold up in 10-20 years but the 1/4" tape as a playback medium has a track-record of many decades and they are made for playing of which the same cannot be said of lacquers.

With due respect to Chad, he was ill-suited to moderating a debate like this. He spent long periods on the sidelines allowing Michael Fremer's silly antics and then when he did come in he went off on long tangents about AS products and it was a bit painful to watch. I think he (and the guys at his end) go back too far with Michael Fremer to openly disagree with him but from where I was sat, he/they didn't exactly try to argue that lacquers were that great of an idea as a medium by which to enjoy the music over the long-term. As owner of a business that also releases audiophile records, he was understandably diplomatic in terms of the words he used, but his disdain for £500 ERC product was pretty obvious.

In my opinion, the only person that really came out of this whole spectacle with a lot of credit was Mike from The In Groove. He was got his points across very well and managed to remain calm and not rise to the goading of Mr Fremer. I particularly enjoyed when he asked them if they could only have one (and last) copy of A Love Supreme, what would you rather: this lacquer at £500 or a top-notch vinyl record at a fraction? They all said the record which to me, says it all. Well done to him for stepping up to the plate because in reality was up against not just Fremer but the other guys too but the very fact that they couldn't actually bring themselves to dispute or disagree with him told its own story. Alas his shop is half-way around the world from me, but should I find myself in that neck of the woods, I'd definitely be paying it a visit!
 
Honestly, there are very few bargains to be had here in the US. While most independent record shops are cognizant of the market in which they reside, and price accordingly, some do not (thanks eBay and Discogs). I was deep into jazz collecting in the mid-80s until around 2000. Back then it was common to find first US pressings of Blue Note, Prestige, Pacific Jazz, Dial, etc for a more than reasonable price, especially as CD was the format of choice (I never gave up on the LP). Had I not been a poor college student at the time, I would have bought much much more - however I am appreciative of the scope and depth of my collection as it stands today. Make no mistake - those rare pressings are out there in my area record shops -- for a price. I live 130 miles north of NYC, 135 miles west of Boston and 150 miles south of Montreal - back in the day, all the jazz greats came playing and passing through here, making the area rich with original jazz LPs squirreled away for decades in someone's basement. Garage sales, used book stores, estate sales, charity shops - that's where you can still find the 'holy s**t' moments of crate digging that make your heart race and your wallet happy.
 
norliss said:
I particularly enjoyed when he asked them if they could only have one (and last) copy of A Love Supreme, what would you rather: this lacquer at £500 or a top-notch vinyl record at a fraction?
Click to expand...

My comment of the night was when Mike E spotted Chad’s battered original pressing of Saxophone Colossus with the bad spine split and asked whether it was an ERC pressing! That one had me laughing for quite a while.
 
Tony L said:
My comment of the night was when Mike E spotted Chad’s battered original pressing of Saxophone Colossus with the bad spine split and asked whether it was an ERC pressing! That one had me laughing for quite a while.
Click to expand...

I think that bit may have been during the time when I had to attend to Lord Mog of Glamorgan and stick the bins out. I'll have to watch the missing segment this evening :)
 
I couldn't be bothered to watch it all.

I don't know what the difference between an acetate and a lacquer is, and whether the lacquer that is used to cut a test is the same as that used for plating.

And I don't know what he argument is about. Why does InGroove care that someone is cutting lacquers direct from tape for sale? It seems the kind of thing that would have appeal to some owners of unnecessarily expensive hifi (like InGroove…) The prices seem quite reasonable in the context of manufacture, but absurd in the context of getting the best rendition of A Love Supreme, which will be digital, probably over any pressing from anytime ever.

I think Fremer is wrong on the intrinsic superiority of analogue, and has been ever since I first interacted with him online in about 1995. He's absolutely right on the intrinsic appeal of a record though. And I'll always favour him over a record dealer, who are necessary evils.
 

Oh noes! Mike has another ERC title! Incomprehensibly a copy of White Blood Cells, why that got the $575 treatment I have no idea.

PS The sharpie thing is an utter disgrace. He’s absolutely right to go apeshit on that one.
 
You can certainly pay a heck of a lot more than $575 for a White Stripes record!

It is the sharpie thing that, like Mike, I find totally unacceptable. It basically makes it ungradable as a collectable, and a $575 record can never be anything other than a collectable. The only time you ever want a pen anywhere even remotely near a record sleeve is if the artist is signing it. No other scenario ever. It is just as bad and just as destructive to value as say sellotaping seam splits etc. I drop a full grade if I spot any marker and certainly mention it, it can never get to a full EX under the UK grading system to my mind.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top