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A wee night out.

Arkless Electronics said:
And we all know why that is...

The property bubble must be burst and go back to the levels which could be considered "historically correct". This means a lot of people losing a lot of money that they should never have made in the first place.

I recall that back around say 1993 (I can't remember exactly when the bubble started but it must have been around then) that where I lived in Teesside an average family home was maybe £55,000 and had been around this for many years, rising only maybe £500 a year. Suddenly (it seemed pretty sudden!) it was worth like £130,000!

Vast amounts of new housing need to be built. Supply must stem demand and therefore the value of property must halve and so to the average rent. People need houses to live in and sod the property speculators and buy to let "usury"!
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Who is going to build these houses Jez?
Young people don't want to work in the building trades in the numbers that are required to construct vast amounts of new houses.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Much as your fascist opinions are offensive bollox, at least the first part which you give as a bad example is actually how things should be! Yes you should not be allowed too many kids... we live in an overpopulated world.
Yes the size of your home should be limited. Yes you should be prevented from moving to the countryside for a better view. It is greed, selfishness and all the things that go with "wanting more" that take from those with the least! There is always a loser when someone becomes "a winner" and this must be stopped by force.
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You should have been born in Stalins Soviet Union. All your wishes come true.
The only thing of any sense you have ever posted is 'we live in an overpopulated world'.
 
Snufkin said:
Steady on Jez.... I know a few Tories and they think tend to think of themselves as reasonable/responsible individuals. Of course they are deluded by voting Tory, as are many in this country, but they are not Fascists. I have a deep dislike of the Tory party but in the main they are not Fascists. However Tories are supporters of the minority of the UK's population who own land and in effect they are supporting a dirty corrupt system that works for the few, not the many.
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I know that... but as I hate them with a vengeance I'll say anything to have a go at the barstewards!
 
Well latest policy announcement from Labour is just amazing! Pretty much full on Marxist, I couldn't have come up with much better my self!

On BBC HYS they're praising them to the hilt! many comments like "pack of bloody commies", "Corbyn the Marxist", "it'll be like the 70's are back" and I'm thinking "yes it is that wonderful comrades! Bring it on". Which is obviously what they all mean:D
 
Just read about a 7yr old from Liverpool who wrote to Santa asking for her family to be together and for some food for Xmas - and a nice doll.Sums up what I think of deliberate tory policy these last 10yrs ,and why I will always vote LABOUR Mick
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Well latest policy announcement from Labour is just amazing! Pretty much full on Marxist, I couldn't have come up with much better my self!
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McDonnell has provided his critics all the ammunition they need and therefore pushed an outright Johnson majority far further forward as the likely election outcome. The 12th Dec is really not going to be a fun night for Labour...
 
Tony L said:
McDonnell has provided his critics all the ammunition they need and therefore pushed an outright Johnson majority far further forward as the likely election outcome. The 12th Dec is really not going to be a fun night for Labour...
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His critics, yes. That's not everyone. Unless you are a hedge fund manager or similar what's not to like?

I will say that it always amazes me that Labour never ever seem to use the most salient arguments available to them ie that unless you are said hedge fund manager you are a turkey voting for xmas to vote tory. I'd be saying "NHS cleaner? On ZHC? On min wage?, Disabled?, Single mother? Well this is how much better off you stand to be under us whereas you would be royally screwed under the Tories!" ... Kinda thang...

Oh and as the poorest people in the worst jobs and living in the worst areas are roughly half as likely to vote at all as the average 60+ Tory voter I'd be pushing the "register to vote and make sure you get out on the day" bit ad nausea! Vans with loudhailers going around every council estate etc...
 
Arkless Electronics said:
His critics, yes. That's not everyone. Unless you are a hedge fund manager or similar what's not to like?
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Most of us grasp that you need business success and corresponding profit to finance state infrastructure. I heard a stat on R4 earlier that (IIRC) 42% of people pay next to no tax at all, and that the tiny percentage of super-rich actually pay 35% of the total UK tax take (I can’t remember the exact numbers, but it was in that general region). Without tax revenue there is no infrastructure; no NHS, no education, no social care, no police, no armed services, no justice system, no transport system etc etc. McDonnell’s rhetoric, at least from your posting and a couple of short clips on the BBC I heard, seems to be attacking and vilifying the people who actually stick the most into the country’s coffers. This really is a basic input/output scenario, if the money doesn’t go in, we get no infrastructure out.

As I’ve said consistently through this and every other thread I believe very strongly in fair and progressive taxation of a rather higher level than we have right now (just a few % more). Loopholes and avoidance schemes absolutely need to be closed off, but the very last thing we want or need is a culture where business innovation and entrepreneurship is impeded by the state beyond this fair taxation culture. I’ve no idea how much tax you pay a year, but my guess is, like me, you aren’t exactly funding a new hospital or school, so maybe it is wise to keep those who are on side!

The most important thing a government can do is to provide a culture where business, both small and large, can flourish and generate wealth, and therefore create necessary infrastructure through the taxation they pay. It really is that simple. Without that success, prosperity, profit and wealth you simply do not have a tax-cow to milk. It needs milking pretty hard, but not so hard you frighten it off. Business is already fleeing the UK in droves thanks to Brexit, going in like an utter lunatic against what is left isn’t the brightest strategy IMO.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
That's not everyone.
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but an awful lot. Including fully paid LP members, including many many low paid, food bank using people, like the ones I recently met knocking on doors with local party members. This constituency will probably return a Tory unfortunately, but I have met many LP supporters who are looking for an alternative.

Labour Party leadership are just not credible to many voters.


Jez Why dont you join your local party. If you are so driven by your views, why dont you use your wit and charm to enter politics?
 
gintonic said:
but an awful lot. Including fully paid LP members, including many many low paid, food bank using people, like the ones I recently met knocking on doors with local party members. This constituency will probably return a Tory unfortunately, but I have met many LP supporters who are looking for an alternative.

Labour Party leadership are just not credible to many voters.


Jez Why dont you join your local party. If you are so driven by your views, why dont you use your wit and charm to enter politics?
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Oh I'm far too witty and charming for that!:D And vowed never to join Labour so long as they follow the IHRA on Israel.
 
Tony L said:
Most of us grasp that you need business success and corresponding profit to finance state infrastructure. I heard a stat on R4 earlier that (IIRC) 42% of people pay next to no tax at all, and that the tiny percentage of super-rich actually pay 35% of the total UK tax take (I can’t remember the exact numbers, but it was in that general region). Without tax revenue there is no infrastructure; no NHS, no education, no social care, no police, no armed services, no justice system, no transport system etc etc. McDonnell’s rhetoric, at least from your posting and a couple of short clips on the BBC I heard, seems to be attacking and vilifying the people who actually stick the most into the country’s coffers. It really is a basic input/output scenario, if the money doesn’t go in, we get no infrastructure out.

As I’ve said consistently through this and every other thread I believe very strongly in fair and progressive taxation of a rather higher level than we have right now (just a few % more). Loopholes and avoidance schemes absolutely need to be closed off, but the very last thing we want or need is a culture where business innovation and entrepreneurship is impeded by the state beyond this fair taxation culture. I’ve no idea how much tax you pay a year, but my guess is, like me, you aren’t exactly funding a new hospital or school, so maybe it is wise to keep those who are on side!

The most important thing a government can do is to provide a culture where business, both small and large, can flourish and generate wealth, and therefore create necessary infrastructure through the taxation they pay. It really is that simple. Without that success, prosperity, profit and wealth you simply do not have a tax-cow to milk. It needs milking pretty hard, but not so hard you frighten it off. Business is already fleeing the UK in droves thanks to Brexit, going in like an utter lunatic against what is left isn’t the brightest strategy IMO.
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As always the most important part of what I was saying was ignored... But we're closer than you think on the bit you did address..
 
Tony L said:
Most of us grasp that you need business success and corresponding profit to finance state infrastructure. I heard a stat on R4 earlier that (IIRC) 42% of people pay next to no tax at all, and that the tiny percentage of super-rich actually pay 35% of the total UK tax take (I can’t remember the exact numbers, but it was in that general region). Without tax revenue there is no infrastructure; no NHS, no education, no social care, no police, no armed services, no justice system, no transport system etc etc. McDonnell’s rhetoric, at least from your posting and a couple of short clips on the BBC I heard, seems to be attacking and vilifying the people who actually stick the most into the country’s coffers. This really is a basic input/output scenario, if the money doesn’t go in, we get no infrastructure out.

As I’ve said consistently through this and every other thread I believe very strongly in fair and progressive taxation of a rather higher level than we have right now (just a few % more). Loopholes and avoidance schemes absolutely need to be closed off, but the very last thing we want or need is a culture where business innovation and entrepreneurship is impeded by the state beyond this fair taxation culture. I’ve no idea how much tax you pay a year, but my guess is, like me, you aren’t exactly funding a new hospital or school, so maybe it is wise to keep those who are on side!

The most important thing a government can do is to provide a culture where business, both small and large, can flourish and generate wealth, and therefore create necessary infrastructure through the taxation they pay. It really is that simple. Without that success, prosperity, profit and wealth you simply do not have a tax-cow to milk. It needs milking pretty hard, but not so hard you frighten it off. Business is already fleeing the UK in droves thanks to Brexit, going in like an utter lunatic against what is left isn’t the brightest strategy IMO.
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Not sure exactly what this is a response to, but you might want to fact check it. Whatever the figures it is IMO irresponsible (of the BBC - you can do what you like) to quote them without context. Relevant context includes:

- The fact that income tax only accounts for 25% of tax receipts. It's by far the most progressive tax, so of course you'd expect the very wealthy to pay a decent proportion of it. National Insurance, VAT, capital gains, fuel duties, all the rest - the wealthy don't pay these taxes in a way that reflects their relative wealth.

- The fact that you have to be living an extremely spartan existence not to be paying any tax at all. You can be entirely exempt from income tax and still pay NI, VAT, fuel duty etc. And you're going to be paying a *far* greater proportion of your income on these taxes than the super-rich pay on *all* their taxes.

- The fact that the relatively high proportion of income tax receipts coming from the very wealthy is largely accounted for by massive income inequality. Low and middling earners have barely seen their income rise over the last few years. (The poorest have been taken out of the income tax system to keep them alive, basically: it's a compensatory rather than a progressive move and it erodes the tax base.) The very wealthy have meanwhile seen their income rise a lot. So they're paying (some of them) more income tax, and a greater share of the total receipts. This is not a good sign.

- The fact that terms like "the top 10%" and even "the top 1%" don't get at what's going on here. As far as I can see when McDonnell talks about the super-rich he's talking about the top 0.001%. Very few of these people are starting businesses or creating jobs. Their wealth is extractive rather than productive and it's mostly stashed overseas. These are some of the people driving Brexit, by the way - precisely because they have no interest in the long term stability of the country. They are most welcome to jump into their gold Lear jets and fly off into the sunset: HMRC will barely notice.

Healthy income tax receipts require a large, stable tax base. That's your tax-cow, not a few hedge fund billionaires. Building this base means increasing wages, increasing productivity, and weaning ourselves off our dependence on the financial sector. That is going to annoy some billionaires, there is no avoiding it - then but then so is stopping Brexit.
 
I think many homeless people have been displaced because of structural changes in the economy. E.g. automation, clean energy. They are healthy individuals who need to be retrained and i think funds should be made available to them to do this. For those in dire needs because of ill physical health, they need to be looked after in the short term and for society to help them in one way or another. I don't believe in taxing the rich to solve this issue. It needs to be solved collectively and addressed in a proper way. Forcing an IT company to pay for unemployed coal miners doesn't make sense in the long run. Taxing a company at a reasonable rate and offer a flexible workforce by providing incentives for apprentices, corporate housing etc seem to me to be a better solution.
 
bob said:
Who is going to build these houses Jez?
Young people don't want to work in the building trades in the numbers that are required to construct vast amounts of new houses.
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If they knew the money they could make, they might change their minds. First though it might be useful if these jobs were actually advertised, as 99% never are. Most of these workers are recruited word of mouth.
 
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