A Tory vs A Labour Brexit - What Real-World Consequences?

[maxflinn]

Jack, there has been no change in Labour Party policy since you started this thread, glowingly praising Corbyn.

Here is a post of yours from it, dated 22nd February 2018, where you support Corbyn's idea of a customs union:

Corbyn and Labour are a lot smarter than the Lib Dems, Tories and Blairites.

Corbyn will announce Labour are in favour of a version of the Customs Union on Monday. If there is a vote about it in Parliament, Labour will win with the help of Remainers in various parties.

This will put a hole in HMS Rustbucket England, which the Tories are fleeing in over the Channel to Dover.

Meanwhile Corbyn has won an international peace prize and the British media have kept completely quiet about it. https://evolvepolitics.com/mainstream-media-silent-as-jeremy-corbyn-wins-international-peace-prize/

"On Friday, after his landmark speech in Geneva, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was awarded with a highly prestigious International peace prize. But you certainly wouldn’t know it from looking at the mainstream media.

"Along with political activist and historian Noam Chomsky, Corbyn was handed the Sean McBride Peace Prize – a prestigious award dedicated to the memory of peace campaigner Sean MacBride, a Nobel Peace Prize winner in 1974."

MacBride was one of the founders of Amnesty International.

Jack

----------------

Can you explain how your glowing support of Corbyn and Labour's Brexit ideas then, have completely changed to your current, rabid anti-Corbyn/Labour/Brexit position?

 

[Vinniemac]

Trade expert’s view, for those interested:
“Remain in EU = No Brexit
Remain in Single Market = Soft Brexit
Customs union = Hard Brexit
FTA = Very Hard Brexit
No deal = Very very hard Brexit”

https://mobile.twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1134126447294058497

 

[ff1d1l]

Jack, there has been no change in Labour Party policy since you started this thread, glowingly praising Corbyn.

Here is a post of yours from it, dated 22nd February 2018, where you support Corbyn's idea of a customs union:

Corbyn and Labour are a lot smarter than the Lib Dems, Tories and Blairites.

Corbyn will announce Labour are in favour of a version of the Customs Union on Monday. If there is a vote about it in Parliament, Labour will win with the help of Remainers in various parties.

This will put a hole in HMS Rustbucket England, which the Tories are fleeing in over the Channel to Dover.

Meanwhile Corbyn has won an international peace prize and the British media have kept completely quiet about it. https://evolvepolitics.com/mainstream-media-silent-as-jeremy-corbyn-wins-international-peace-prize/

"On Friday, after his landmark speech in Geneva, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was awarded with a highly prestigious International peace prize. But you certainly wouldn’t know it from looking at the mainstream media.

"Along with political activist and historian Noam Chomsky, Corbyn was handed the Sean McBride Peace Prize – a prestigious award dedicated to the memory of peace campaigner Sean MacBride, a Nobel Peace Prize winner in 1974."

MacBride was one of the founders of Amnesty International.

Jack

----------------

Can you explain how your glowing support of Corbyn and Labour's Brexit ideas then, have completely changed to your current, rabid anti-Corbyn/Labour/Brexit position?

Events.

 

[drummerman]

Watch Dogs Legion: Roll-up, roll-up, get yer post-Brexit dystopian virtual-reality ‘ere!

Me thinks you got that from the beebs 'click' technology news vlog ... .

I was particularly impressed by the manic acting female video developer employee frantically stating why she thought Brexit was such a catastrophe

She should be a character in the game. Perhaps she thinks she is ... ?

Augmented reality n'all that.

Don't worry Tony. It's only a game. - Seemingly aimed at the impressionable square eyed Young Labour (and probably our PFM resident, on occasions a little over enthusiastic, solder iron wielding hero ... Arkless) but likely to be enjoyed by many more who dont give a s*** about a 'message'.

Looks great.

 

[TheDecameron]

Can you explain why, before the referendum, you were on the leave side before flipping to extreme hard-remainer?

Come come Brian, a gentleman only has the right to ask that question once he’s revealed how he himself acted. You can’t just keep dancing behind the curtain. Let’s see what youve got.

 

[TheDecameron]

Why does it make you laugh, Jack?

There has been no discussion on here re the potential differences between a hard Tory Brexit and a soft Labour Brexit. All there has been is 24/7 anti-Brexit rhetoric (which is fair enough) which has morphed into anti-Corbyn rhetoric (which is unfair, IMO). You have hardly posted about anything else for months.

Yes I live in Ireland so while Brexit may still affect me it won't to the degree it might folk in the UK. I am thus not so emotionally invested in the whole thing and can look at the situation objectively.

Hence this thread, designed to look objectively at the real-world effects of either type of Brexit. Is this not wise given it appears there's going to be one or the other, possibly based on the outcome of a pre-October GE?

I'm not trying to sell anyone anything.

We all know you're staunchly opposed to Brexit. So are many others, however I don't see why you should dictate whether or not this discussion is relevant for others.

And did you not say you would have voted for Brexit had you lived in Britain? Have you seen the Irish government’s forecasts about what Johnson’s hard Brexit is going to do to the Irish economy? Ireland will take a hammering along with the rest of us here. There’s no such thing as a Labour Brexit, they’re not in power and are unlikely to govern except in coalition after the next GE. They are complicit in what’s coming.

 

[Brian]

Events.

Wrong.

All that has changed is hard remainers, and a poacher turned game-keeper is probably among the worst, have become noisier and more angry as the terrible realisation dawns that Labour is trying to work for everyone, not just for a fraction of the 48%.

If only hard-remainers had even half the respect for the 52% they demand from the 52% for the 48%...

Blaming Labour for everything is simply ridiculous. If some of you lot had not helped enable a tory govt in 2010 and 2015, none of this would have happened. Even worse is some people are planning to ask for more.

 

[Brian]

Come come Brian, a gentleman only has the right to ask that question once he’s revealed how he himself acted. You can’t just keep dancing behind the curtain. Let’s see what youve got.

Sorry Hugh, I did say what I based my vote on and that’s all, so the usual suspects will have to continue making stuff up. That’s hardly unusual, let’s be honest.

 

[maxflinn]

And did you not say you would have voted for Brexit had you lived in Britain?

Yes. I had hoped a Britain free from the EU would be less likely to blindly go along with the Neocon regime change wars. I was wrong. If there was another referendum and I lived in Blighty I'd vote remain.

Have you seen the Irish government’s forecasts about what Johnson’s hard Brexit is going to do to the Irish economy? Ireland will take a hammering along with the rest of us here.

Well if there's a hard Brexit, then it will certainly affect Ireland. If there was a soft Brexit, not so much.

There’s no such thing as a Labour Brexit, they’re not in power and are unlikely to govern except in coalition after the next GE.

The next GE is almost certain to be before October. So a soft Labour Brexit is still possible, if not unlikely.

They are complicit in what’s coming.

You've just pointed out that they're not in power.

Labour want to try to steer the UK through this mess with the minimum economic damage, hence the Customs Union Jack thought was such a clever idea.

But due to hard remain politicians and the media giving false hope of a 2nd referendum, have ended up the scapegoat for people's frustrations. Hardly surprising given the absolutely monumental smear campaign against Corbyn, being waged from the right-wing many here would have us believe they strongly oppose.

Lots of emotion involved, Dec, and not enough logic...

 

[TheDecameron]

Yes. I had hoped a Britain free from the EU would be less likely to blindly go along with the Neocon regime change wars. I was wrong. If there was another referendum and I lived in Blighty I'd vote remain.Well if there's a hard Brexit, then it will certainly affect Ireland. If there was a soft Brexit, not so much. The next GE is almost certain to be before October. So a soft Labour Brexit is still possible, if not unlikely. You've just pointed out that they're not in power.

Labour want to try to steer the UK through this mess with the minimum economic damage, hence the Customs Union Jack thought was such a clever idea.

But due to hard remain politicians and the media giving false hope of a 2nd referendum, have ended up the scapegoat for people's frustrations. Hardly surprising given the absolutely monumental smear campaign against Corbyn, being waged from the right-wing many here would have us believe they strongly oppose.

Lots 7 of emotion involved, Dec, and not enough logic...

Ah neocons.
Kill Hillary to stop neocons- get Trump, get Trump’s golden temple erected in Jerusalem and the Palestinians buried alive.
Vote Brexit to stop neocons- Get Farage, get Boris. Get Trump and Putin weakening Britain and attempting to weaken Europe.

You can see how the ‘neocons’ strategy has played out. A cynic might see dissimulation in your forum activity. The alternative explanation is far less flattering to you.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Yes. I had hoped a Britain free from the EU would be less likely to blindly go along with the Neocon regime change wars. I was wrong.

Respect to you for admitting you were wrong, but it has always seemed to me that the UK was more likely to follow the US line, than the EU line, on such things; it then follows that, free of the EU, the UK would be somewhat more likely to cling to the US' apron strings than less.

I'm not sure what led you to think otherwise at the time, but I suspect it may be your unswerving characterisation of the EU as a neocon project.

I don't see any other EU countries (or the EU itself) lining up to support the US (and UK) on a war with Iran. Do you?

 

[TheDecameron]

Respect to you for admitting you were wrong, but it has always seemed to me that the UK was more likely to follow the US line, than the EU line, on such things; it then follows that, free of the EU, the UK would be somewhat more likely to cling to the US' apron strings than less.

I'm not sure what led you to think otherwise at the time, but I suspect it may be your unswerving characterisation of the EU as a neocon project.

I don't see any other EU countries (or the EU itself) lining up to support the US (and UK) on a war with Iran. Do you?

A Tory-led Britain will be the second country to join Trump in an illegal war against Iran. Only one other country would be quicker- it has a far right racist leader like Britain appears to be getting but has the convenience of being much closer to the Iranian population.

 

[maxflinn]

Ah neocons.
Kill Hillary to stop neocons- get Trump, get Trump’s golden temple erected in Jerusalem and the Palestinians buried alive.
Vote Brexit to stop neocons- Get Farage, get Boris. Get Trump and Putin weakening Britain and attempting to weaken Europe.

You can see how the ‘neocons’ strategy has played out. A cynic might see dissimulation in your forum activity. The alternative explanation is far less flattering to you.

Yes Neocons, who drove the regime change wars in Iraq, Libya and Syria, creating a massive refugee crisis as well as a surge in Saudi-supported Wahhabist terrorism, all of which has combined to leave many concerned and disillusioned people in Europe open to the exploitation of the far-right, which has flourished since these wars, helped along by Neocon propaganda pitting the so-called 'Judeo-Christian' West against the 'Islamic hordes' via every medium out there, using stooges like Tommy Robinson whose legal costs they paid.

This current climate will destroy Europe from within, not Putin.

Neocons whose warmongering rhetoric drove NATO right up to Russia's border, thus forcing Russia to take actions of its own including trying to weaken the EU and, building deadly new nuclear weapons using new technology in response to the US - driven by Neocons - pulling out of nuclear missile treaty after treaty.

If you don't stand against Neocons, you stand with the far-right, and help push us closer to the brink of Armageddon.

Jeremy Corbyn would try to remove the considerable influence these racist maniacs enjoy in the UK, as well as reversing the savage austerity cuts and the growing inequality, which is why he's targeted by the Neocon establishment, and which is why I fully support him.

 

[maxflinn]

Respect to you for admitting you were wrong, but it has always seemed to me that the UK was more likely to follow the US line, than the EU line, on such things; it then follows that, free of the EU, the UK would be somewhat more likely to cling to the US' apron strings than less.

I'm not sure what led you to think otherwise at the time, but I suspect it may be your unswerving characterisation of the EU as a neocon project.

I don't see any other EU countries (or the EU itself) lining up to support the US (and UK) on a war with Iran. Do you?

You are correct. I was wrong.

 

[TheDecameron]

Yes Neocons, who drove the regime change wars in Iraq, Libya and Syria, creating a massive refugee crisis as well as a surge in Saudi-supported Wahhabist terrorism, all of which has combined to leave many concerned and disillusioned people in Europe open to the exploitation of the far-right, which has flourished since these wars, helped along by Neocon propaganda pitting the so-called 'Judeo-Christian' West against the 'Islamic hordes' via every medium out there, using stooges like Tommy Robinson whose legal costs they paid.

This current climate will destroy Europe from within, not Putin.

Neocons whose warmongering rhetoric drove NATO right up to Russia's border, thus forcing Russia to take actions of its own including trying to weaken the EU and, building deadly new nuclear weapons using new technology in response to the US - driven by Neocons - pulling out of nuclear missile treaty after treaty.

If you don't stand against Neocons, you stand with the far-right, and help push us closer to the brink of Armageddon.

Jeremy Corbyn would try to remove the considerable influence these racist maniacs enjoy in the UK, as well as reversing the savage austerity cuts and the growing inequality, which is why he's targeted by the Neocon establishment, and which is why I fully support him.

I’m getting Putin shill deja vu all over again. One prod is all it takes for you to spill out your vision of Armageddon.

 

[maxflinn]

I’m getting Putin shill deja vu all over again.

That's your problem, not mine.

 

[jackbarron]

Can you explain how your glowing support of Corbyn and Labour's Brexit ideas then, have completely changed to your current, rabid anti-Corbyn/Labour/Brexit position?

ff1d1l said "Events" and he is completely right.

The latest event is reported in The Guardian today "Jeremy Corbyn faces a showdown with his shadow cabinet over Brexit on Monday amid growing signs of a grassroots revolt if he fails to give full backing to a second referendum in which Labour would campaign to remain." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/16/jeremy-corbyn-faces-revolt-second-eu-referendum

If he does then maybe I'll vote for Labour. But I certainly wouldn't trust Corbyn or the advisers around him.

Except for 2010, I have voted for Labour in general elections all of my life. I have campaigned for them. It was after the post of mine you have put up that I finally sussed Corbyn had been a Brexiteer all along, despite the fact that he was meant to campaign for Remain during the Referendum.

I suddenly saw a completely different man and felt conned by him, especially since he took the side of the racists and nationalists in supporting Leave after an advisory Referendum. He is as bad as May, Johnson, Cameron, Clegg, Farage and all the others.

Week in and and week out news stories have backed this up. While the SNP, Lib Dems, Green and others wanted to fight the Tories over Brexit, Corbyn very often backed away.

Then there was the ridiculous idea of a second referendum/confirmatory vote as an option, which we only found out a few weeks ago wouldn't actually be a choice between Remaining of Leaving the EU. This is another part of the Corbyn con.

There are also the antisemitism charges that Labour still haven't dealt with. It is easy for Corbyn to say he's against it, but it's obvious things aren't getting done.

On top of that Corbyn is often appalling in the House of Commons during PMQs. I used to wonder why he routinely didn't improvise and take on May's ridiculous claims about Brexit. He didn't because he supports the idea of Brexit.

In answering one of Dec's posts Max you said:

"The next GE is almost certain to be before October. So a soft Labour Brexit is still possible, if not unlikely."

This why you put up your original post Max. Although you deny it, you are selling Labour and their version of Brexit to people on pfm.

Jack

 

[Seanm]

ff1d1l said "Events" and he is completely right.

The latest event is reported in The Guardian today "Jeremy Corbyn faces a showdown with his shadow cabinet over Brexit on Monday amid growing signs of a grassroots revolt if he fails to give full backing to a second referendum in which Labour would campaign to remain." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/16/jeremy-corbyn-faces-revolt-second-eu-referendum

If he does then maybe I'll vote for Labour. But I certainly wouldn't trust Corbyn or the advisers around him.

Jack

Appreciate the reasoning in the rest of the post Jack, but this isn't an event: it's the weekly Observer attempt to spin gossip, speculation and uncontroversial facts into a Labour split. Thornberry's saying that if Boris wins and goes for no deal then Labour's position will have to become firmer in response: that's obvious, and it's an argument I've been making - Thornberry's just found another way of saying, We'll do it when the time is right. As for the grassroots rebellion: "more than 130 CLPs across the country had agreed to debate a motion which would commit Labour to 'campaign energetically for a public vote and to remain', and to 'support revoking article 50 if necessary to prevent no deal'" - that's 130 out of 650 that are even prepared to debate the motion. The majority of members support the current strategy and will continue to, because we appreciate the reasoning behind it and have a pretty good idea where it's going to end up.