advertisement


A Tory vs A Labour Brexit - What Real-World Consequences?

Labour ... A Marxist, anti large (and small business), nationalise everything, anti national defense, 10 million public sector employees hell hole with large (and small) wealth creators (business) either being forced to close or re-locate abroad due to punishing corporate taxation and/or brain dead schemes such as giving workers compulsary stakes in companies.

Of course, personal taxation will have to rise too to pay for all that social funding but they are pretty quiet about that.

What's the bad news :)
No you fool, that's Brexit you're describing.
Remember, F**k business! It's already happening.
 
Of course, personal taxation will have to rise too to pay for all that social funding but they are pretty quiet about that.
I would welcome tax rises to help stabilise a lopsided country. Anyone with an ounce of decency should feel the same. Your post proves why the Tories are in power, selfish, personal gain at the expense of those who need support & opportunity to better themselves.
 
Broadly similar.
Do you really believe so? I'd have thought Labour's version would mean far less upheaval, far fewer, if any job losses, etc...

Not important to you?

Enacted by broadly similar politicians for broadly similar reasons - the pursuit of power.
The Tories brought us the referendum. The voting public the result.

How does this equate to Labour politicians enacting Brexit in the pursuit of power?
 
Compulsory employee stakes in their companies- “terrible idea”. I worked for a US company that gave every single employee a stake in the company. The CEO was a Trump supporter and I’m not sure how Marxist he was being with insisting we took employee shares. He knew it made his company more money.
 
Last edited:
(And where are the SNP in all of this, while we're at it?

The Labour party disregard for Scottish issues is what's causing their problems in Scotland. Continually disparaging the SNP isn't going to help, especially at a time where the Scottish element of their own party have decided to pull in a different direction to the Labour/Tory Brexit coalition in order to try and survive in any form.
 
The Labour party disregard for Scottish issues is what's causing their problems in Scotland. Continually disparaging the SNP isn't going to help, especially at a time where the Scottish element of their own party have decided to pull in a different direction to the Labour/Tory Brexit coalition in order to try and survive in any form.
I agree that Labour did all this to themselves in Scotland, not least with their horrible campaign against the SNP in 2017. But suggesting that the SNP are subject to the same iron laws as every other party - i.e., that they are obliged to "play party politics" and have a specific agenda, and are well able to treat certain things strategically even if they represent core values for their supporters - is not the same as disparaging them. The SNP are pursuing party political goals like everyone else and the current situation is a gift to them and a dilemma for their enemies - why wouldn't they make the most of it? It would really help to move things along if we didn't keep coming up with fantastical embodiments of selfless integrity and competence against which to measure the decadence of the larger parties and players. (In other news, Rory Stewart is a Tory.)
 
I agree that Labour did all this to themselves in Scotland, not least with their horrible campaign against the SNP in 2017. But suggesting that the SNP are subject to the same iron laws as every other party - i.e., that they are obliged to "play party politics" and have a specific agenda, and are well able to treat certain things strategically even if they represent core values for their supporters - is not the same as disparaging them. The SNP are pursuing party political goals like everyone else and the current situation is a gift to them and a dilemma for their enemies - why wouldn't they make the most of it? It would really help to move things along if we didn't keep coming up with fantastical embodiments of selfless integrity and competence against which to measure the decadence of the larger parties and players. (In other news, Rory Stewart is a Tory.)
Sean, it's my opinion that the majority of people who vote for the SNP* do so as the best available anti-Tory option at that time. Yes, independence is an issue but largely as a reaction to the very real dearth of competence in Westminster. The bar is set extremely low for any party to succeed up here when it comes to opposing the Tories and Labour should be doing so much better than they have.

* = Largely former Labour voters. Why?
 
Sean, it's my opinion that the majority of people who vote for the SNP* do so as the best available anti-Tory option at that time. Yes, independence is an issue but largely as a reaction to the very real dearth of competence in Westminster. The bar is set extremely low for any party to succeed up here when it comes to opposing the Tories and Labour should be doing so much better than they have.

* = Largely former Labour voters. Why?
Yes, I can believe that, more or less. To begin with the "Why?" question, that seems fairly obvious but I speak as an outsider: decades of broken promises and complacency towards Scotland on Labour's part, compounded by New LAbour's embrace of Thatcherism, brought to a head by Labour's stupidity over the independence referendum. Now for whatever reason the reinvigoration of the party in England and Wales seems to have fizzled in Scotland - I don't know why, perhaps the rot was just too deep and disenchantment too complete, maybe more accidental reasons like a lack of even half-decent leaders. From what I've seen Labour fights the SNP in an overwhelmingly negative way, whereas the success of Corbynism elsewhere lies in the hope that it offers, the sense of possibilities opening up.

But as for SNP voters, their motivation can't simply be to challenge the Tories, because voting SNP is the single thing most likely to return the Tories to power: if Scotland were to turn red again the Conservative Party would be finished. It must be born from a sense that actually that doesn't matter, because there's no real difference between Tory and Labour Party. I've already said that I think that requires a level of insulation from Tory policies, including no deal Brexit. But I think it also requires the significant line to be drawn elsewhere than between the parties. At a guess, that line is the border: in other words, left wing people are voting SNP because they really are also nationalists. Which is fair enough!
 
I agree that Labour did all this to themselves in Scotland, not least with their horrible campaign against the SNP in 2017. But suggesting that the SNP are subject to the same iron laws as every other party - i.e., that they are obliged to "play party politics" and have a specific agenda, and are well able to treat certain things strategically even if they represent core values for their supporters - is not the same as disparaging them. The SNP are pursuing party political goals like everyone else and the current situation is a gift to them and a dilemma for their enemies - why wouldn't they make the most of it? It would really help to move things along if we didn't keep coming up with fantastical embodiments of selfless integrity and competence against which to measure the decadence of the larger parties and players. (In other news, Rory Stewart is a Tory.)
OK just to give a little more clarity on my Labour Party self interest comments. Of course all parties act out of self interest. In this case Labour’s runs contrary to Scotland’s interests. We want to stay where we are inside the EU and the SNP are supporting our wishes. Labour is pursuing Brexit to win votes England and survive. It doesn’t matter if it’s May or Corbyn telling us the UK voted to leave “and you’re coming with us”. Same shit different coloured sauce. Goodbye.
 
Last edited:
Do you really believe so? I'd have thought Labour's version would mean far less upheaval, far fewer, if any job losses, etc...

Not important to you?

The Tories brought us the referendum. The voting public the result.

How does this equate to Labour politicians enacting Brexit in the pursuit of power?

There is no "labour version".
It - the WA - has been negotiated, agreed and there is no further negotiation to be had. Any pretence that labour has some alternative waiting in the wings has four hooves and a horn coming out of its forehead.

Labour voted for the referendum, to enact A50, and have been noticeably absent from opposition to brexit since. Because the aged bennites want it.
 
OK just to give a little more clarity on my Labour Party self interest comments. Of course all parties act out of self interest. In this case Labour’s runs contrary to Scotland’s interests. We want to stay where we are inside the EU and the SNP are supporting our wishes. Labour is pursuing Brexit to win votes England and survive. It doesn’t matter if it’s May or Corbyn telling us the UK voted to leave and you’re coming with us. Same shit different coloured sauce. Goodbye.
This^^^
 
But as for SNP voters, their motivation can't simply be to challenge the Tories, because voting SNP is the single thing most likely to return the Tories to power: if Scotland were to turn red again the Conservative Party would be finished.

While I accept that is currently Labour's only argument to retain what's left of their dwindling support in Scotland, it's clearly not true. Even if they'd won every seat the SNP did in 2017 it'd have made no difference to the Tories getting in. The SNP have also rejected 100% any chance of doing a deal with the Tories, but have said they would work with Labour. Yes the SNP support in Scotland stops there being any realistic chance of a Labour majority UK government, but that of course is also a good thing.
 
OK just to give a little more clarity on my Labour Party self interest comments. Of course all parties act out of self interest. In this case Labour’s runs contrary to Scotland’s interests. We want to stay where we are inside the EU and the SNP are supporting our wishes. Labour is pursuing Brexit to win votes England and survive. It doesn’t matter if it’s May or Corbyn telling us the UK voted to leave “and you’re coming with us”. Same shit different coloured sauce. Goodbye.
OK 'bye

(Not the same.)

There is no "labour version".
It - the WA - has been negotiated, agreed and there is no further negotiation to be had. Any pretence that labour has some alternative waiting in the wings has four hooves and a horn coming out of its forehead.

Labour voted for the referendum, to enact A50, and have been noticeably absent from opposition to brexit since. Because the aged bennites want it.
You're not really convincing me that hard remainers aren't the mirror image of No Dealers in their total indifference to the facts.

While I accept that is currently Labour's only argument to retain what's left of their dwindling support in Scotland, it's clearly not true. Even if they'd won every seat the SNP did in 2017 it'd have made no difference to the Tories getting in. The SNP have also rejected 100% any chance of doing a deal with the Tories, but have said they would work with Labour. Yes the SNP support in Scotland stops there being any realistic chance of a Labour majority UK government, but that of course is also a good thing.
Maybe for you. Other people would like to see some real change.
 
Maybe for you. Other people would like to see some real change.

That has largely already happened in Scotland - from Labour taking support in Scotland for granted to not even being an also ran. Corbyn might have gained some of the more left-leaning support back if he wasn't hell-bent on helping the Tories delivery Brexit.
 
Tony Benn will anoint Jezza with Kremlin vodka, and the Labour Party will sing The Red Flag, as the UK falls over the No Deal precipice.

Johnson or some other Brexit nutter will become PM. He will try and force No Deal through on October 31st, even if he has to suspend Parliament.

If there is a vote to stop it, I reckon at least as many Labour MPs, if not more, will cross the floor to vote in favour of No Deal.

Labour will enable Brexit, because some of their MPs are hardline Leavers. I don't think Corbyn really gives a monkey's either way, as long as Brexit happens.

Jack
 


advertisement


Back
Top