Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I think there are innumerable studies which show the NHS delivers huge value per £. Compare and contrast with the US system.
30,000 barrier broken
- Thread starter Richard Lines
- Start date
laughingboy
pfm Member
I don't know where you get that impression from. The ONS, for example, says:
- In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person).
- However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736).
If we couldn't invest in infrastructure to meet the demands of EU citizens contributing £ billions to the country (which became a partial cause of the Brexit disaster), I doubt the UK will invest for refugees.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
It was his defection from the NHS's (and Care system) main challenge - lack of staff which he voted to exacerbate. The Tory view of the NHS is no different to much other public spending - they don't like funding stuff they don't use or where they are lucky enough to have other options. One of the nastier elements of the non-Budget was the horrendously cruel swipe at UC, which hardly gets a mention amid the anger at "trickle up" tax cuts, as if UC isn't a bad enough ordeal for anyone in trouble.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Do you doubt it now that you've been shown the actual data?
If so, how about correcting the record and admitting that you were wrong?
Go on. Just this once.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Very happy to do so.
My point remains, though. It seems to matter not a hoot how much cash the taxpayer throws at the NHS, front line healthcare keeps on getting worse, (whilst yet more layers of 'management' get added on).
I'm very surprised at the US figure. I was under the impression that there was no funded healthcare there - you don't get the operation until you've presented the cheque?
My point remains, though. It seems to matter not a hoot how much cash the taxpayer throws at the NHS, front line healthcare keeps on getting worse, (whilst yet more layers of 'management' get added on).
I'm very surprised at the US figure. I was under the impression that there was no funded healthcare there - you don't get the operation until you've presented the cheque?
More eternally iniuram than viti then. (No I'm not a classicist btw).
wulbert
pfm Member
I agree with your sentiments about the root causes. And the lack of a coherent, integrated strategy to address the problems.
Maybe there is a "plan", but it remains unstated? "Let's keep the "immigrant problem" boiling away. It is a useful diversion when government is failing and the immigrants are a useful scapegoat and recruiting ground for right-wing policy". Or something like that.
Which goes back to your point about corrupt governments. I often think that the reason that governments are so frightened of media scrutiny is because they are essentially lying to us most of the time. Serving a different master than the population of the country. They might say that we "can't handle the truth" though.
The basic problem as far as I see it is that although spending on the NHS has risen 'in real terms' year on year (i'm assuming this means above inflation, but i've not dug to see actual figures), so has the population size, and the average age of the population (you may have noticed, but people aren't getting younger), and so have the costs of more sophisticated treatments people expect to be offered.
Also, anyone you know who has any actual contact with the NHS tends to be rather complimentary of the service they get, so the 'it's getting worse' seems to just be a meme rather than backed by any evidence.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Getting worse in terms of increased waiting times for treatment, A&E, ambulance response times etc. But you’re absolutely correct in identifying the cause of these increases. Ironically, some of those 30,000 refugees possess precisely the skills needed to address the problems of an ageing population with increased health needs.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
The quality of care is fantastic. The people who work in the NHS are beyond fantastic. But it's getting harder and harder to access that care as resources are stretched.
source: https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/re...w-has-the-waiting-list-changed-over-the-years
wulbert
pfm Member
And is that "increase in spending" being spent on actual patient care or on management fees to privatised portions of the NHS? I've seen reports that privatised services cost three times as much for the same level of service. Or maybe it's being spent on an increased, top-heavy middle management structure, rather than empowering Ward Sisters?
Do ward sisters have influence over care?
Nursing Times, 13 JANUARY, 2012
"Many nurse managers were functioning with new titles, or in new posts and structures. The Audit Commission admitted there was anxiety among managers and ward sisters about the concept of the “ward manager” and about further changes in nursing management.
Nursing analyst Isabel Menzies-Lyth was an early supporter of organisational change. However, in a 1999 article on the nursing crisis, she said: “The swing has been too great once more, and managers are not authoritative enough. They fail to operate with appropriate firmness. There is too much laissez-faire and ‘do your own thing’. In consequence, management is poor and ineffectual, which is bad for morale since people feel unsupported and insecure” (Menzies-Lyth, 1999).
In 2001, the DH admitted the role of the ward sister needed to be strengthened, recognising that ward sisters should be “the fulcrum of the healthcare team” and that their leadership was “crucial to efficient, effective and caring provision” (DH, 2001).
However, a 2003 study by Sergeant found ward sisters were preoccupied with finance and administrative responsibilities to the detriment of supervising standards of patient care (Sergeant, 2003).
Global consulting firm the Hay Group also expressed concern about nursing leadership. In a 2006 report, it argued that “great nurses do not always make great managers”. The report said the typical characteristics associated with nursing, such as kindness, empathy and a caring attitude, were not enough to be successful in a management role (Hay Group, 2006).
The Hay Group’s analysis was contradicted by the RCN in a report of an investigation into the role. This found that ward sisters “were motivated to manage their ward and ward team by a passion for nursing, rather than an aspiration or desire to be a manager per se” (RCN, 2009). This view was reflected in sisters’ unanimous rejection of the title “ward manager”. Study participants (ward sisters from different types of hospital trusts across England) were united in their desire to retain the title “ward sister” or “ward matron” because it identified them to patients, staff and the public as the ward nurse leader (RCN, 2009)."
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
The quality of care is fantastic. The people who work in the NHS are beyond fantastic. But it's getting harder and harder to access that care as resources are stretched.
source: https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/re...w-has-the-waiting-list-changed-over-the-years
I've had plenty of contact with the NHS over the past 15 years. Whilst I have encountered many marvellous individuals, I have found the system as a whole to be frequently dangerously dysfunctional. Notable have been instances of indifferent ward care, poor retention of records, lack of attention to notes, communication between wards and departments, poor intershift handover protocols, a bizarre blindness to the obvious symptoms (confusion, tiredness etc) of that plague of the elderly, UTIs.
A combination of the above killed my 82 year old father.
We've got an ageing population and declining fertility rate. We need immigrants, and more than 30K. And we have a duty to help out. Despite Brexit, we're comparatively a rich country (though going downhill fast). The numbers will increase for sure but not to unsustainable levels even with climate change. We are lucky that people want to come here.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
@eternumviti that's awful - I'm so sorry.
I'm inclined to agree that in many ways the service is somewhat dysfunctional. My heart sinks when my local hospital tells me they have a new IT system. At one point recently there was a six month delay in sending out letters following an appointment because they'd outsourced sending letters to a private company(!) and that company had developed problems with their IT system...
I recently read This Is Going To Hurt by Adam Kay about his experience as a junior doctor. I think we've all read stories about the demands made on NHS staff but this makes for brutal reading. When the senior clinician in a hospital is being made to work 90 hour weeks and sleeping in their car because there's no time to go home between shifts it's small wonder cracks start to show.
I'm inclined to agree that in many ways the service is somewhat dysfunctional. My heart sinks when my local hospital tells me they have a new IT system. At one point recently there was a six month delay in sending out letters following an appointment because they'd outsourced sending letters to a private company(!) and that company had developed problems with their IT system...
I recently read This Is Going To Hurt by Adam Kay about his experience as a junior doctor. I think we've all read stories about the demands made on NHS staff but this makes for brutal reading. When the senior clinician in a hospital is being made to work 90 hour weeks and sleeping in their car because there's no time to go home between shifts it's small wonder cracks start to show.
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Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Ambulances queue in the car park because patients can’t be admitted to A&E because that sets off the triage & treatment countdown that A&E staff know they can’t meet.
Meanwhile, people having strokes and heart attacks wait hours for an ambulance.
All part of the introduction of meaningless targets that are no indication of clinical efficacy, introduced from the world of commerce into the NHS. Just like the internal market that was supposed to drive up standards and increase patient choice.
Meanwhile, people having strokes and heart attacks wait hours for an ambulance.
All part of the introduction of meaningless targets that are no indication of clinical efficacy, introduced from the world of commerce into the NHS. Just like the internal market that was supposed to drive up standards and increase patient choice.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
Therein lies the problem - I don't think we can easily envisage the impacts of climate change and mass migration.............
Regards
Richard
UK should be paying them to come: they will be net contributors within months.
wulbert
pfm Member
Yup. When my (then) 89yr old father went into hospital to have his heart checked out he rapidly developed kidney problems (they had put him on anti-fluid retention drugs that were expressly contra-indicated in his medical records). He then developed a urinary infection. When the doctor told me they had booked an MRI scan because of his worsening confusion, I suggested that perhaps his UTI was causing this as it is a well-known effect. The doctor looked surprised and then agreed that it could be a factor.
We got him out of there pronto because the next step was a long-term elderly care unit where they could "monitor" his mobility. I reckon it would have been the end of him.