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¿End-of-side distortion — inherent to vinyl?

Discussion in 'audio' started by Chris, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. barrymidd

    barrymidd Who me?

    NAIL ON HEAD!
     
  2. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    As I previously posted, if you listen almost exclusively to classical, the LP is a long dead format.
     
  3. df_genius

    df_genius Solder slinger

    A 1 or 2% tracking error at the beginning and end of an LP isn't really audible IMO. I think a much better explanation of why vinyl can sometimes (especially on worn LP's and cartridges) deteriorate near the end of the side is the decreasing speed of the stylus. A stylus travels over 16cm/sec (e.g 30 x pi x 33.3 / 60) at the beginning of a side and below 8cm/sec (e.g. 14 x pi x 33.3 / 60) at the end. The speed of the stylus on the record has an effect on the dynamic range and signal-to-noise ratio available on the disc at that point.
     
  4. Pac1

    Pac1 Designer/Manufacturer

    A
    Bullshit.
     
  5. YNWOAN

    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    Harsh...........................but fair.
     
  6. sonddek

    sonddek pfm Member

    Thanks for telling me. I will stop listening to my classical LPs now that I have had the benefit of your authoritative advice.
     
  7. kasperhauser

    kasperhauser pfm Member

    Dead. Burn 'em.


    Dead.
     
  8. sonddek

    sonddek pfm Member

    I should have made my point more clearly: the error is very small, and probably inaudible. This very minor limitation is almost certainly NOT the source of any reduction in quality heard at the end of a side.

    Every single one I've tried so far.

    Several. I have found singles by some of my favourite bands in there. The Clash, Yazoo, the Stones, you name it. There's also lots of music I don't yet know. It's a lot of fun.

    Nonsense. I often buy new releases on vinyl. Google it.

    OK - no more sales pitch - I'll take em. Just name a sensible price.

    Actually the sort of stylus which ruins a record often rode quite high in the groove, and good line contact styluses reach past most of that damage. I never have any qualms about buying used records even with visible signs of wear. If your deck is set up right, then they seem to get better the more you play them.

    Again, this is nonsense. I just put a record on, cue it, enjoy it, and forget about it. There's no real maintenance, and no soot.

    I'm not trying to con anyone, you are, by stating blatant falsehoods in your criticism of vinyl, which is a very enjoyable medium to use for music reproduction, as many people on this forum will agree. I wonder if you are so angry because you mistakenly believe, as you put it, that "all the good condition LPs [have] been snapped up years ago". Relax - there's plenty of life left in the old dog. As others have said, it's not illegal to use both vinyl and digital, so why turn it into a war? Has 'uncle' locked you in your room again?
     
  9. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed pfm Member


    I wondered why Sergei Rachmaninov's ' The Isle of the Dead' sounds sooooo lurvely on those prehistoric vinyl discs.:)
     
  10. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    Baz has a point. Not much new classical is being released on vinyl.

    Lots of old stuff is still available secondhand and some great performances are being re-released on vinyl -- but the new stuff, she is hard to find.

    Joe
     
  11. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed pfm Member


    That's quite sad, Joe, but what I suspected, reading the weekly reviews in my newspaper.

    I understand that the most avid consumers of the new compact disc players in '82 were classical enthusiasts. Obviously the cornflake-free aspect of CDs outweighed the sonic degradation. Luckily, things have moved on, but in both formats !
     
  12. mmaatt

    mmaatt pfm Member

    Thank you - sonddek is refuting the fundamental principles of anti-skating theory - of course there is a significant change in the angle of a record's groove as it nears the centre - this is basic geometry. Give me one example of a tonearm designer who has set anti-skating to decrease as it traverses a record because it will track better.

    mat

    PS - Quote from Analogue productions - note last sentence:

    Track 1 Anti-skating test; 315Hz amplitude sweep to +12dbu (Lateral)
    Signal should remain clean in both channels up to the highest level, both audibly and as viewed on an oscilloscope. In case of distortion, increase anti-skating force or decrease anti-skate until breakup occurs equally in both channels. The left channel information is inscribed on the inner groove wall, the right channel information, on the outer groove wall. Because of the offset angle of a pivoted tonearm, a constantly varying vector force biases the arm towards the center of the record causing the stylus to lose contact with the outer (i.e. right channel) groove wall. Both linear and modulated groove velocity, tracking force, stylus profile, and vinyl composition are contributing factors. The anti skating force attempts to ameliorate this by applying an opposing similar force.
    It is also accepted that the overall force vector increases as the tonearm approaches closer to the spindle or end of the record.

    And from a study by James Kogen on The Anti-Skating phenomenon (1967) it was found that 'skating force will change as a function of groove radius' but 'however frictional force appears to be constant with velocity'. He also states that the skating force is dependant on the distance of the stylus tip from the spindle which of course varies as the record is played.
     
  13. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    Mike,

    The reality is that if you want to have access to wide swath of music you can't limit yourself to any single format.

    Vinyl-only guys miss out on most new classical recordings.

    CD-only guys miss out on a fair bit of alternative rock and experimental music and luverly remastered jazz albums.

    If you're in this for the music the format it's on is very much secondary and, in any case, recording and mastering quality trump format. Good LP beats shitty CD, good CD beats shitty LP, 16/44.1 CD beats shitty 128 kbps mp3 rip.

    Joe
     
  14. Eric L

    Eric L pfm Member

    Are the 15 ips reel tape only guys missing out on anything?







    Didn't think so.
     
  15. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    Eric,

    I need a new hobby. Is much available on reel-to-reel?

    Joe
     
  16. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    P.S. I've not heard the original master tapes but I have to say that the CD layer on the SACD reissues of the RCA Living Stereo releases I've bought — which sell for about $10 a pop — sound pretty damn amazing considering most were recorded in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

    All that's really needed is some care in the recording and mastering — and, of course, ginormous speakers, the more ginormouser the better.

    Joe
     
  17. kasperhauser

    kasperhauser pfm Member

    Cool! If you'd send me the URL where I can order Ben Folds/Nick Hornby "Lonely Avenue" on R2R, that'd be great (it's not listed on their site). I already have the cd and vinyl - might as well go for the hat trick, as they say in curling.
     
  18. Pac1

    Pac1 Designer/Manufacturer

    Some good points Joe and generally true.

    However, as a mainly classical fan, I'm missing nothing on new releases. All the 1000's of albums I havecover all my musical tastes and there's only so much of the same composer's piece you can have! (! must have several 1812's for instance).

    My experience suggests that CD is generally inferior not due to the medium which is capable of better performance than LP but because most are appallingly mastered or recorded and are worth only using as coasters. There's the odd exception but it is exactly that. Vinyl for all its prehistoric qualities lives on. Millions of vinyl fans and an industry offering more TT's for sale now than it did 30 years ago cannot be wrong.
     
  19. Mescalito

    Mescalito pfm Member

    My rudeness was a measured response to Sondekk's equally rude response to my original post, Johnfromnorwich.

    And yes, a small proportion of new music is released on vinyl. But that proportion IS doomed to decrease. Apart from anything else, do you honestly think that the backup infrastructure will continue much longer? Where will the pressing plants source new presses? Where will the mastering studios source replacement cutting lathes etc?

    And what exactly has the fact that PFM is a second hand recorsd store have to do with anything?

    Now, you can hide your head in the sand as much as you like, but the fact remains that, other than for a small proportion of an equally small demographic, vinyl is the audio equivalent of a slide rule, and about as accurate.

    The glory days will NOT return. Things have improved and moved on, thank christ.

    Chris
     
  20. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed pfm Member


    And here's me thinking the glory days with vinyl are here now, after forty-five years in hifi.

    You improve and move on if you wish, but these ears are not for digitising.
    (Apologies to Maggie).
     

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