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¿End-of-side distortion — inherent to vinyl?

Discussion in 'audio' started by Chris, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. Elephantears

    Elephantears Trunkated Aesthete

    So what's your take on Kissin's Schubert 960, Basil? Seems to be bring up some quite divided reactions.

    (This is a medium non-specific question.)
  2. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    Not so much 'over the top' but 'down the other side'
  3. sonddek

    sonddek pfm Member

    Distortion modes and levels vary enormously from one deck to the next. Modes of harmonic distortion account for the difference between a Stradivarius and a three dollar pawn shop fiddle. Often it is not the quantity, but the quality of distortion that defines a sound. This test shows that (1) the two media seem to have different distortion signatures, with CD showing much more 2nd harmonic than 1st harmonic, and (2) the noise floor is adequately low in both mediums.

    In other words, less distortion might not be better if it's an uglier or less naturally occurring kind. So the derisory use of 'euphonic' might just mean 'better able to mimic how real objects sound'.
  4. Werner

    Werner pfm Member

    I briefly visited that HTHF article.

    The author should never have been allowed near to that Audio Precision, as, very clearly, there are many things he does not understand or question, and there are many assumptions that he makes.

    When seeing that 3rd harmonic peak for 1kHz one should ask:
    "what mechanism in digital audio, particularly PCM, promotes such distortion".
    The correct answer is: none.

    When seeing that 3rd harmonic peak for 10kHz one should ask:
    "what mechanism in 44.1kHz-sampled digital audio could provoke this".
    The correct answer is: none, except for something fishy in the player's
    analogue output stages.

    One also shouldn't just eyeball spectra and then conclude that noise levels are sufficiently low. One should integrate over the relevant bandwidth and then weight with a perceptual curve.


    I read the first pages in that series too ... hopeless.

    And later on we find gems like

    "but I was really surprised at how poorly the 16/44 digital stream is representing the original 10 kHz sine wave. "
  5. Michael J

    Michael J pfm Member

    Distortion is the difference between input and output (excluding overall amplitude, obviously). A violin, any violin, does not distort, it merely possesses its own sonic signature. Some might regard all violins as unlistenable, but they are not distorted - they are violins and that is what they sound like.

    Btw, my TEAC CD player is rated with Harmonic Distortion 0.002% (1kHz). I think I can live with that, I doubt that I can hear it.
  6. Nick Urfe

    Nick Urfe pfm Member

    I have to say this is probably correct. I'm a vinyl fan myself, and find it more involving than CD. Some people will agree with me, and others won't. It's all about personal taste. Listening to music is an emotional experience. The best hi-fi is the kit that allows us to enjoy music the most.

    For me, listening to music at home is a passion. If that involves some euphonic distortion, then I'm not bothered. Enjoy your music, whatever medium you're using.
  7. sonddek

    sonddek pfm Member

    You've missed the point of my post, but even so, your point depends on what we define as 'input'. If we define input as the sound produced by the oscillating violin string, then all that harmonic resonance that the body does is then distortion, producing the 'timbre'. Record players, loudspeakers, and even CD players, have timbre too. My point was that any combination of harmonic distortions produces more or less bearable timbre. Less distortion on a graph doesn't always mean a device is pleasant to hear. Certain kinds of timbre are believable, whereas others can seem very artificial. A dose of 2nd harmonic without any 1st harmonic might fall into the artificial category of timbres.

    At any rate, the linked article is not the conclusive evidence of superior perceptual accuracy that it is supposed to be.
  8. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    Dude, stop digging...
  9. sonddek

    sonddek pfm Member

    Hehe - well there's got to be some reason why putting a record on is such a relief after listening to digital. People on this thread seem to be suggesting that a DAC through a fuzzbox would make us old-timers happy. Sometimes I doubt whether some commenters have even heard a good turntable. Don't get me wrong, I buy and listen to digital, but it is like eating a Mars bar with the wrapper on. Then we get graphs and figures and all kindsa spec-flexing, but what matters is the spellbinding.
  10. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    I'm sure there is, but I think it's the same reason Arthur Dent likes tea.
  11. sonddek

    sonddek pfm Member

    So it's all down to the uttoxeter?
  12. mmaaatt

    mmaaatt Active Member

    A lot of people like tea, and a lot of people like music, but apart from that there is precious little connection in your analogy.

  13. chris@panteg

    chris@panteg pfm Member

    You say that Richard and based on what i have owned and used over the last 27 years :rolleyes: I would agree with you, however a couple of weeks ago i listened to a system put together by Tony of Coherent Systems , it was all Digital (CD and HDD) and it was spellbinding allright , in fact it had me thinking why am i bothering so much with vinyl at all ?

    Then i realised that for me , bothering with vinyl is a challenge and perhaps some kind of strange addiction , as well as sounding great ! It can frustrate the hell out of me , and for some an extemely anal pursuit of perfection .
  14. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    could a mod please change the spelling mistake in the title?
    After 13 pages and no correction I am dismayed.
  15. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator



    (slacking at work, obviously)
  16. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    Not too familiar with HHGTTG eh?
  17. YNWOAN

    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    I see you still left a space before the question mark though :rolleyes:
  18. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    The bastard...
  19. Elephantears

    Elephantears Trunkated Aesthete

    I think there is a certain elegance in allowing a space before a question mark; a pause allowing for a raised eyebrow perhaps, or a slightly tentative manner. Shall we have a 14 page thread debating its merits ?
  20. Nik

    Nik pfm Member

    Oddly enough I've seen many thread titles here with appalling spelling and/or grammar and assumed that it wasn't the "done thing" to complain.

    As we are getting fussy, though, I'd say it should be "End-of-side", not "End of side".

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