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¿End-of-side distortion — inherent to vinyl?

Discussion in 'audio' started by Chris, Mar 8, 2011.

  1. Chris

    Chris pfm Member

    Is end of side distorsion something inherent to vinyl due to arm geometry etc. and the difference in velocity of the tip as it tracks relative to ever dwindling spirals ?
    This is not something I worry about but a guy on a Spanish forum is fretting.

    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    It is - to a point; but it all depends on your specific arm geometry, stylus profile, length of arm etc.
  3. hifi_dave

    hifi_dave Hi-Fi Retailer

    In theory it is a problem but in practice is not worth losing sleep over.
  4. Chris

    Chris pfm Member

    Hi Ynwoan,
    The guy insists he hears it on all t/Ts - his own SME 309, Regas - the lot. I assume Stylus tip profile helps to lessen it but it still exists. Which profiles are theoretically better/worse. Would a conical tipped 103 be a no-no?
  5. PigletsDad

    PigletsDad pfm Member

    There are several different effects, some avoidable, some not.

    The two basic causes are the reduced linear velocity (so that the on-disc wavelength is shorter) for a given frequency, and the greater groove curvature, causing tracking issues.

    The shorter wavelength gives tracing distortion, which is vastly worse with spherical or other large radius styli. Line contact types show much less tracing distortion.

    Tracking distortion is due to the geometry of pivoted arms, so the cartridge axis no longer lies along the tangent to the groove. 12" arms reduce this, parallel trackers eleminate it, although each have their own issues.
  6. barrymidd

    barrymidd Who me?

    The required anti skate forces change across the record also. it is always worth trying using little or no anti skate force and see if the situation improves. As always, recheck cart setup with particular reference to correct overhang. If it plays the rest of the side ok, it is unlikely to be a tracking force issue.
  7. mmterror

    mmterror pfm Member

    I hear it on every deck I've ever listened too since being exposed to CD.

    By track 3 I'm hearing nails down a blackboard.
  8. bob atherton

    bob atherton pfm Member

    I used to get it a bit with my old Ittok on the LP12 but now with the Ekos It's not really there at all.
  9. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    Ditto...I only keep my LPs for decorative reasons now.
  10. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    Ditto, but I only own a Rega P3/Goldring 1042 so I figured a more expensive setup might sort it out.
  11. mmterror

    mmterror pfm Member

    I always find it funny when you get the old "Vinyl is better than CD" discussion you get 3 pages of "oh yes vinyl is just inherently superior in all regards, CD sounds just awful!"

    Then someone lobs a brick in the pond and mentions "what about tracking distortion??"

    And then its all "cough cough, errrr oh look over that Ted Rogers in a dress?" from the vinyl fans.

    For me tracking distortion is just too big a hurdle to get over. The 'halo of screech' I call it.
  12. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    I wouldn't count on it, once the record is damaged in this way, no record player can correct it.
  13. barrymidd

    barrymidd Who me?

    The above is crap. I have a high end system with a top CDP and also a great TT. My TT definitely sounds better than the CDP and this is down to the inherent "goodness" of the vinyl format. The best CD recordings do NOT match the best vinyl recordings and pro rata all the way down to bad recordings. All this rubbish about inner groove distortion can only be to make the digital only people feel good. If you can hear enough inner groove distortion to spoil the listening experience, you need a better TT!
    There are far more distracting digital artifacts inherrent in the CD format than there are shortcomings in the analogue vinyl domain.
  14. mmterror

    mmterror pfm Member

    The rational vinyl listener. Never corner one, they bite!;):D
  15. Basil

    Basil Harbethian

    You just know he was one of those kids that would go into a massive screaming fit when his mum refused to buy him sweets at the supermarket checkout.
  16. Rasher

    Rasher Quadrophenia land

    I used to have it bad with my LP12/Ittok, and then when I came back to all this with my old Pro-Ject Genie which has no anti-skate device at all. The last half a track would get very nasty.

    But now with my Ace Spacearm on my Ace Spacedeck I hear nothing of the sort. In fact having set it up with painstaking care to get the anti-skate working best on the last track of a record it actually sounds better here than at the beginning of a side. Anyhow - for the first time ever I don't get it anymore.

    By the was Ted Rogers in a dress. I'm almost certain.
  17. barrymidd

    barrymidd Who me?

    SWEETS! For a treat my Mom gave me road grit to chew!
  18. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    What about bass monoing ?

    What about RIAA equalization ?

    What about high frequency limiting ? (de-ess)

    Love the "Ted Rogers in a dress" comment, gave me a good laugh.

    Don't get me wrong, I've never heard a high end vinyl setup (just P3s and LP12s) and I'd love to hear something high end that changes my mind, but vinyl proponents point to the flaws of redbook CD (which are mostly in poor implementation, not in theory) while ignoring the huge problems inherent in vinyl.
  19. mmterror

    mmterror pfm Member

    There is good and bad in both camps, for me the uniformity and lack of fiddle factor with CD just wins out. However, I hardly pick up a CD now.

    Whatever floats your boat at the end of the day.
  20. YNWOAN

    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    Sorry Chris, not ignoring you - just a bit busy. Anyway, pigletsdad has covered it. Conical is likely to be bad, as you suspect. I find it depends quite a lot on what music you listen to as well; if he listens to solo piano it may well irritate on every disk. As suggested by others, the problem can be overcome with a 12" arm or parallel tracker.

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