Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
A backward step to what you already have IMHO.... especially the arm...
£3000 to spend on TT, what would you do?
- Thread starter TonyScarlett
- Start date
A backward step to what you already have IMHO.... especially the arm...
Rosewind
Lost in Translation
Kuzma Stabi S + Stogi S + a better motor / power supply and a Denon 103R/SA or Benz or Ortofon or London Decca. That is where I would go. Spend the rest on a phono stage.
I don't know why people always go on about "mullet" systems and one high quality source being too god for the rest of the set-up. If it sounds right, then it sounds right. I have a cart that cost me almost 3 times the price of a renovated Thorens TD 147 Jubilee and it surely sounds great.
I don't know why people always go on about "mullet" systems and one high quality source being too god for the rest of the set-up. If it sounds right, then it sounds right. I have a cart that cost me almost 3 times the price of a renovated Thorens TD 147 Jubilee and it surely sounds great.
Seanm
pfm Member
This is making me think of Tony's suggestion of a well-sorted Thorens TD125, maybe with that modern take on the Series II arm that SME do*. Very handsome decks with a very friendly presentation.
http://www.schopper.ch/index.php?page=thorens-td125-MKI-
Edit: M2-9R, that's it. Lovely.
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I don't know why people are banging on about the amp and speakers, they're more than capable of accepting a top level vinyl front end and the OP has clearly landed on a synergy that suits him, I'm in exactly the same boat and have some sympathy deciding on a final TT set up.
This is the age old problem with vinyl set ups, they're such delicate things that it's impossible to chop and change and try some out like with say amplifiers or DACs etc.
@Seanm - Yes I'm kind of regretting selling my 125 now, I hope my next step is a decent step up from where I am.
This is the age old problem with vinyl set ups, they're such delicate things that it's impossible to chop and change and try some out like with say amplifiers or DACs etc.
@Seanm - Yes I'm kind of regretting selling my 125 now, I hope my next step is a decent step up from where I am.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
I guess that all depends on your idea of "top end" and what results you are after! The OP's phono stage is certainly not up to the job and whilst JR149's can be very good much depends on condition. They do tend to "go off" over the years. The last time I heard a set was about 12 years ago and they were old then. This set looked in tip top condition and all the drivers worked. A mate in Leeds bought them. We tried them with a Stereo 20 and they sounded awful. I knew how good they could sound from being at hi fi shows when Jim Rodgers was demonstrating them! Thinking they maybe didn't like the Stereo 20 we tried them with an Exposure 4 DR with the same results... Knackered drive units? Worn electrolytics in crossover? Gawd knows...He sold them on a few weeks later.
Stereo 20 is good (better still modified of course
) but there is much better around like an Art Audio Quintet for valves or a Sugden A21SE for transistors. With the OP interested in a 3009 arm with an MC cart as well it's looking pipe and slippers-ville from here! If never sounding harsh or in yer face, even if the recording is meant to, is the over riding requirement then it should be fine....
TonyScarlett
pfm Member
With the OP interested in a 3009 arm with an MC cart as well it's looking pipe and slippers-ville from here! If never sounding harsh or in yer face, even if the recording is meant to, is the over riding requirement then it should be fine....[/QUOTE]
Harsh & in yer face = listening fatigue, I find I'm listening to my Led Zep albums less & less often these days, my music tastes have definitely mellowed as I've aged, more Americana, indie folk etc. Not sure about the pipe (gave up smoking years ago) but looking to invest in some slippers.
Harsh & in yer face = listening fatigue, I find I'm listening to my Led Zep albums less & less often these days, my music tastes have definitely mellowed as I've aged, more Americana, indie folk etc. Not sure about the pipe (gave up smoking years ago) but looking to invest in some slippers.
The thing about soundstage is the fact that JR149 had wide dispersion, in particular the tweeter, so there was a fairly wide sweet spot. The bass is going to be a bit mushy as it is basic physics as that a coated bextrene 5" cone as in LS3/5a will take some driving. The P3ESR is not clinical, it is natural and accurate, because it uses an injection moulded polymer cone rather than a vacu-formed coated cone. There really is nothing more natural than Quad electrostatics, but I also have Harbeth SHL5plus 40th Anniversary and they come very close indeed (and I go to a lot of live classical/acoustic performance - 4 shows last week), but it is impossible for a box speaker to image as well as an electrostatic or planar speaker.
If you want to buy a vintage collector's item Garrard, then fine, but having owned your speakers and having also owned a 20w valve amp (Art Audio Jota) I am well aware of their limitations and I doubt you will get better sound by spending more than £1,000 on a complete turnable rig.
I guess that all depends on your idea of "top end" and what results you are after! The OP's phono stage is certainly not up to the job and whilst JR149's can be very good much depends on condition. They do tend to "go off" over the years. The last time I heard a set was about 12 years ago and they were old then. This set looked in tip top condition and all the drivers worked. A mate in Leeds bought them. We tried them with a Stereo 20 and they sounded awful. I knew how good they could sound from being at hi fi shows when Jim Rodgers was demonstrating them! Thinking they maybe didn't like the Stereo 20 we tried them with an Exposure 4 DR with the same results... Knackered drive units? Worn electrolytics in crossover? Gawd knows...He sold them on a few weeks later.
Stereo 20 is good (better still modified of course
With the OP interested in a 3009 arm with an MC cart as well it's looking pipe and slippers-ville from here! If never sounding harsh or in yer face, even if the recording is meant to, is the over riding requirement then it should be fine....
I recently discussed this with Alan Shaw in the context of a review in Stereophile of the P3ESR 40th Anniversary which compared it to the Falcon LS3/5a, which is basically a BBC LS3/5a replica with a Bextrene covered cone, like the JR149.
Alan Shaw said:
"Another very odd thing is that the BBC LS3/5a was never designed to have a peak at around 1kHz, as I have demonstrated before. That horrible peak was a consequence of ageing in the doped bextrene cone and its rubber surround. Indeed, factually, the BBC skimmed off the flattest 3/5as for themselves on incoming QC and the retail trade took the remainder. See my video.
The very reason that I designed the P3 way back in 1990 was because, having bought a first generation Rogers3/5a in about 1987, I was horrified by the huge peak in the response at around 1.3kHz. It completely destroyed the balance of the speaker as I recalled it in use at our local BBC radio station where I'd worked with it in the mid 70s. Every first generation 3/5a I've measured - and we've had lots of them traded in by the BBC for P3/Monitor 20s - all have this ghastly 1kHz peak, the worst example had grown to +11dB above the average. Yes, that's right - 11dB.
Nothing can be done to reverse what is chemical breakdown in the cone/surround, so why anyone would wish to emulate that defect in a reinterpretation of a fine classic speaker is beyond me.
From the original 1976 BBC design report: No evidence at all of the 1kHz peak because time had not taken its tole. Were this speaker to be remeasured in, say, ten years, the1kHz peak would have grow in amplitude into a distinctive boost in sound output in that narrow frequency band.
As you can see, the P3ESR curve is even smoother than this reference sample LS3/5a, and that the use of a modern tweeter in the P3ESR allowed me to design-out the nasty boost in tweeter output around 20kHz eveidenced in even this very early 'golden reference' 3/5a.
The romantic nonsense that is talked about the 3/5a is truly astonishing."
The full explanation is here:
https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup...on-p3esr-40th-anniversary-model-in-olive-wood
As is well known, most manufacturers moved to polypropylene and also changed the surround material. So the condition of the JR149 is vital.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Harsh & in yer face = listening fatigue, I find I'm listening to my Led Zep albums less & less often these days, my music tastes have definitely mellowed as I've aged, more Americana, indie folk etc. Not sure about the pipe (gave up smoking years ago) but looking to invest in some slippers.[/QUOTE]
Each to their own of course. No one I think wants "in yer face" but you seem to be veering towards the "mellow old radiogram" type sound from the equipment you are most interested in... and that doesn't warrant a £3K front end... All IMHO and YMMV of course
TonyScarlett
pfm Member
Each to their own of course. No one I think wants "in yer face" but you seem to be veering towards the "mellow old radiogram" type sound from the equipment you are most interested in... and that doesn't warrant a £3K front end... All IMHO and YMMV of course
[/QUOTE]I certainly don't want mushy ill defined bass that you imply by the "mellow old radiogram" comment, the biggest improvement bought about by the Hana/Dino upgrade was the improvement in bass, not just depth but definition, bass guitars became musical instruments. Everything I've read about the Garrard 401 suggests that properly restored & mounted in a quality plinth they excel in this area.
krenzler
pfm Member
serendipitydawg
Dag nabbit!
To be totaly clear this deck contains some vintage Lenco components such as the motor & idler assembly. Still a very good record player though!
TonyScarlett
pfm Member
This looks interesting, seems to have got some good reviews, will take a closer look.