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£20 Behringer, £1250 Naim V1, £1800 Linn Majik DS-Eff all in it.

Yesterday a friend popped round with an iPhone 5s and a pair of Grado headphones. The Grados sounded a lot nicer through the MDAC L3 Toy than the iPhone. Friend agreed. The bass was tighter, not overblown, there was more harmonic info, the sound was more spacious and percussion instruments were resolved much better. I would say that these are pretty fundamental improvements.
 
Yesterday a friend popped round with an iPhone 5s and a pair of Grado headphones. The Grados sounded a lot nicer through the MDAC L3 Toy than the iPhone. Friend agreed. The bass was tighter, not overblown, there was more harmonic info, the sound was more spacious and percussion instruments were resolved much better. I would say that these are pretty fundamental improvements.

I don't think anyone has claimed that the analog stages at the DAC output don't make a difference, and DACs in small mobile devices have to make a lot of compromises on the analog side.
 
I have a friend with a very nice system (dCS - Conrad Johnson - Martin Logan) + a very good sounding room. He has another friend who is into comp audio in a big way who wanted to compare a hot-rodded John Westlake MDAC with a Metrum Octave he also owns against the dCS Elgar. I was also invited as I have been interested in trying out comp audio for a little while.

The outcome: two of us could not detect any difference on some pieces of music, mostly instrumental, only on one excerpt with female voice could I detect a clear difference between the dCS and the other two dacs. The dCS had a slightly softer (smoother maybe) presentation on this particular track. This wasn't a definitive test by any means but it did prove to me that there is a lot less difference between dacs than other parts of the chain.
 
If you cant detect any difference then obviously the expensive option aint for you.

And what if there were no (or eff all) difference rather than a difference I cant detect? How does one, then, justify the 'expensive option'?
 
And what if there were no (or eff all) difference rather than a difference I cant detect? How does one, then, justify the 'expensive option'?

It's possible, but it would be strange, Naim and Linn have particularly different sound signature (haven't heard the V1 though). If the differences are realy minimal then you've definitely done the right choice
 
I had an arcam rdac which I think most people would agree is good at its price point , on praise on this forum I got a maplin dac and there again was little difference between the 2 . Yes the arcam was better with a bit more detail and bass punch but considering the approx 9x difference in price the maplin is superb value and I was happy to sell the arcam
 
And what if there were no (or eff all) difference rather than a difference I cant detect? How does one, then, justify the 'expensive option'?

You are making assumptions and if they happen to be correct then the hypothetical answer I can give is that one might have an expensive case, more spent on advertising, higher profit for maker, the parts may have cost significantly, the system used was not up to much etc etc.

In my experience an example would be a meitner dac compared to mine. Many multiples the cost of mine. The differences with depth of my pockets are thankfully not great enough to make life miserable. But there are differences the expensive dac just renders everything with a better tone. I can recognise and accept it but budget means I stick with what I have. Is the difference deserving of the price difference I don't think so but that is the case with a lot of products. Getting that extra bit often costs a lot more than the poor man can reasonably justify spending.

I find it hard to believe that the behringer is as close as you say but accept your view. I might get one at some point as I can always pass on to my son for pc use just to compare.
 
Steve has a good sense of humour imho btw is this the dac you are talking about? If so be shocked if this sounds good but promise I will eat humble pie if the miracle occurs. It will be great I can sell off anything relatively expensive I own and put behringers all over the house

http://www.gear4music.ie/Recording-and-Computers/Behringer-UCA202-Audio-Interface/79E

I have one that you can borrow if you like. Just PM me your address and I'll stick it in the post.
 
A very useful tip I learned years ago was to notice how the music made me feel.

I once listened to 2 products side-by-side at home: the 1st I'd owned for 4 years which was a big cut-down of the 2nd product. The more expensive product did sound more detailed, but more importantly it was much more enjoyable to listen to.

Ditto - this is how I listen out for differences too - emotional delivery and not too smoothed off. I keep "enjoying" the sound of the very first DAC ever made - the Arcam BB1 - based on these facts.
 
Well, Im picking up a UCA222 in a few hours time , I will compare it to a MDAC, an Emotiva XDA-1, and a meridian DAC (24/96 in a 568.2 processor)

I will use it into a graham slee headphone amp with 2 switchable inputs over a pair of Senn Hd800's. so can AB UCA222 and the other dacs instantly (tho might have an issue level matching)

Will also check its sound as a USP to SPDIF converter
Only issue is I cant compare High rez music on it , as it only does 16/44 or 16/48


I will report back on my impressions later
 
I picked up the UCa222 for round 30 quid ....

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UCA222.aspx

It's a USB dac
Spdif conversion (to toslink only)
An AD
A headphone amp.

Well made product , nice ally case etc , does what it says on the tin , comes with some software and nice drivers - snap to set up.

I tested it's DAC vs a Squeezebox Touch's one and my meridian 568.2 24/96 dacs into a Graham Slee solo headphone amp. not level matched tho

IMO , As good as the Squeezebox and doesn't lose much to the meridian but there is a difference , the meridian is a lot smoother with better bass and a better sense of space. However for the money , the UCA is a star performer in this area.

Tried the optical out vs a squeezeboxes optical out - couldn't really tell the difference.

Its own built in headphone amp is just adequate - drove my Sen 650s ok , but doesn't go very loud.

I did not bother to test it's AD or record anything with it.

Fly in the oinkment is that its limited to 16/48 or 16/44 or below..so no high rez.!!!

Anyway , speaking to the pro guy at the pro shop , explaining my system , he said he had something much better for me.

The Behringer firepower FCA1616 interface

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/FCA1616.aspx

Different beast altogether , more of the UCA222 but much better implementation and high bitrates.
$250 or so.

It's basically an audio interface and a recording studio type thing , lots of functions and things an audiophile wont use , but there are things an audiophile WILL use

1) Usb or firewire DAC

2) USB/Firewire to SPDIF converter - both toslink and coax (and vice versa)

3) Toslink and SPDIF Coax input in addition to usb/firewire for the dac , 24/96 dac

4) Has 2 VERY good headphone amps built in

5) A reasonable pre for active speakers too

6) Balanced or single ended analog output

7) Balanced or SE input

8 ) Would make a nice mic pre for REW and other room measuring software

9) 24/96 AD

And lots of other stuff more to do with recording..

So I have tested it in various guises

1) DAC is as good if not better (a little different) to my meridian 568.2's dac on a headphone system.. beats the squeezebox hands down. For the money its amazing. I tested its Toslink and its COAX dac inputs too.

2) Its headphone outputs are really very good , drives the phones as loud as you want (Senn HD800 ... 600ohm phones) with great bass , clarity etc - worth it for that alone. Its difficult to test various headphone amps , but it was as good as my Burson HA160 and matched the graham slee ....to me..

3) I checked its pre section sent to my headphone amp - I cant really say much , same as using the volume control on the headphone amps so I don't know the quality - it reputedly uses MIDAS pres which are considered top notch.. my system is mainly digital (meridian DSP speakers) so I dont know how it would perform with actives..

4) Tested its firewire and USB to SPDIF convertor
I ABCD ed into a digital pre , feeding the SBT's digital and coax and the FCA1616 digital and coax into the digital pre into various inputs and switching between them ..

Amazingly the FCA usb to Coax sounded better than the SBT's coax , optical sounded identical. Firewire performed identically to the USB.. its is supposedly the best interface...(my Dell workstation has usb and firewire)

I used 2 computers for this test , one running LMS to the Squeezebox and the other using media monkey to play to USB...both streaming 16/44. I cued up both players with the same ripped flac file.

5) Just for laughs I stuck in a mic and did some kareoke ..

It comes with DAW software and some other stuff , I know nothing , but fiddled a bit , looks impressive to me (tracktion 4 and other bits and bobs and stuff) , I suppose if you into home recording , it will make more sense to you.

6) I used its midi interface to drive my behringer DEQ2496 (digital eq) which allowed me to remote control it from my computer instead of the front panel , was quite cool..

The only issues are

1) Manual , it's hardly acceptable , it kinda expects you to be a recording engineer and know what all the stuff does. Setup isn't difficult ,but its not plug and play, you need to DL drivers from Behringer if you aren't running a mac.

2) Switching outputs is a mission

For eg , if you use it as a headphone amp you have to go to windows control panel and tell the puter to use line1/2 on the fca 1616 as sound output , if you want to switch to SPDIF output , you need to go to control panel/sound and tell it to use FC1616 spdif as an output device , same for recording.. at least it DOES have switchable coax/toslink/midi input on the front panel.

Evidently there is some software "control panel" for the device , but I cant find it...maybe you need to run the DAW or something to access it..

There is a FCA610 thats cheaper and does whatever the FCA1616 does , less analog inputs ,would make no difference to most audiophiles so if you want to save a bob or 2 go for that one...

As I said , both units are great value for money and wont break the bank.. always worth having a look at pro audio before committing massive sums of cash in the high end world.. I bought both.
 
Hi Rodney,

Nice write-up!

I've been looking at the FCA610 for some time after Roland discontinued their UD-25 for recording purposes. I'd be interested to know whether you can choose to lock to an external S/PDIF clock? I see it's dynamic range is only 102db but, it might be good enough to perform various null tests. The Lynx Hilo is king in this respect but, given the 610's price it's a bit of a bargain.

Peter
 
Molee,

I have a Klimax DSM. It sounds marvelous. I also have a couple of SB's. They too sound marvelous. I would be hard pushed to differentiate between them on a blind listening test, I'm sure.

When buying the DSM, I was perfectly aware that the differences between streamers is vanishingly small & largely imaginary. I chose to buy the DSM on grounds other than sound quality.

My advice would be choose the solution you like the best for whatever reasons are important to you. On sound quality grounds, there really is not enough difference to matter.

Chris
 
I think I did see , in configuring the fca1616 SPDIF drivers in the windows control panel it gave options as to what clock was to be used. I do remember options like device clock etc. Will check when i get home
I have Downloaded the Tracktion 4 DAW that comes with it , will the dAW make switching the outputs any easier , like from headphones>speakers>spdif etc , rather than having to go to the control panel in windows to do so?
 
And what if there were no (or eff all) difference rather than a difference I cant detect? How does one, then, justify the 'expensive option'?

Bling, pride of ownership, bragging rights, a liking of it's visual appearnce...it really does not matter. It's whatever makes you happy.

Chris
 
Igloo , when you load the drivers , there is a FCA1616 control panel that you can access, under the Synchronise option , it allows you to set sampling rate and there is an option for device clock , it is either "device internal clock" or "spdif input". Not sure if thats what you wanted
 
Igloo , when you load the drivers , there is a FCA1616 control panel that you can access, under the Synchronise option , it allows you to set sampling rate and there is an option for device clock , it is either "device internal clock" or "spdif input". Not sure if thats what you wanted

Hi Rogney,

Yes, many thanks.

I've ordered one to have a play with, though I'm also tempted by the E-MU 0404 USB 2.0 (superb spec), which I'll probably try next.

Actually, I'm curious how it'll compare to the Lynx Hilo.

Peter
 


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