MVV
pfm Member
Bingo! If a little kind. "Twice as good" certainly not, maybe "a little bit better" at best.
£18500.00 speakers what do they sound like
- Thread starter Homehelp
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Like many others, I am sure, I work on the principal of doubling the cost to really improve the sound, in replacing a piece of kit. That rapidly becomes ruinous. Without due care, you can easily double the cost, for not much benefit.
To return to the speaker manufacturer I mentioned in the above post, it will not suprise many of you to hear his description of how the costs of high end equipment stacks up. A top speaker say of $80000, which is'nt exceptional, has most of the budget eaten up by marketting, distributors and retailers margins, before you look at the manufacturers profit. Typically, he thought the material cost and construction would be £20000.
I have been trying to get this guy a UK distributor, not easy in the current market. One sticking point seemed to be that the price they paid could'nt be 30% + off retail. He sells direct at the moment with small margins, barely making a living. He can't possibly give a 30% discount. So the system seems to depend on retail prices set way above manufacturers true costs, so everyone can make 20 to 25%. No wonder kit is so expensive.
To return to the speaker manufacturer I mentioned in the above post, it will not suprise many of you to hear his description of how the costs of high end equipment stacks up. A top speaker say of $80000, which is'nt exceptional, has most of the budget eaten up by marketting, distributors and retailers margins, before you look at the manufacturers profit. Typically, he thought the material cost and construction would be £20000.
I have been trying to get this guy a UK distributor, not easy in the current market. One sticking point seemed to be that the price they paid could'nt be 30% + off retail. He sells direct at the moment with small margins, barely making a living. He can't possibly give a 30% discount. So the system seems to depend on retail prices set way above manufacturers true costs, so everyone can make 20 to 25%. No wonder kit is so expensive.
sean99
pfm Member
I think there also comes a point where you need to design & build a dedicated listening room rather than put uber expensive components in a crappy room.
My Dad spent £6K on a new pair of Tannoy Kensingtons, knowing I would inherit them after his death. I hope one of my nieces or nephews will inherit then when Sue and I are gone ... bet they will be worth a lot more than £6K then. I also have a £500 pair of mini monitors in my second system. The Tannoys are vastly better.
Nic P
Nic P
MVV
pfm Member
Of course you are right. I hadn't got the energy for that bit.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Spot on. There couldn't be a more dignified expression of our obsession.
ratcatcher
pfm Member
I believe that music, art, theatre, literature are the ultimate achievement of mankind. Spending thousands on a book won't improve it's enjoyment, original artwork by a master is beyond our humble wallets (and we can see them free in any major gallery - how brilliant is that?) - but by throwing a few humble thousand pounds at audio, we can appreciate recorded music at it's best.
Would I spend £200k on a hifi, or more? No.
I agree that this is a clear expression of the meaning of an artistic experience, it's value. All I would say is if you don't buy the book, buy the picture, how is the artist to survive.
I love music, live and recorded, but also books an paintings, sculpture. If you think most musicians are poor, you should look at artists. It's near impossible to make a living, unless you are a genius and most of them are'nt recognised till they are dead. So buying pictures, sculpture, keeps the wolf from the door, where buying a print or visiting a gallery does'nt. There is something special about an origonal work too.
I know this is really getting off the subject
Would I spend £200k on a hifi, or more? No.
I agree that this is a clear expression of the meaning of an artistic experience, it's value. All I would say is if you don't buy the book, buy the picture, how is the artist to survive.
I love music, live and recorded, but also books an paintings, sculpture. If you think most musicians are poor, you should look at artists. It's near impossible to make a living, unless you are a genius and most of them are'nt recognised till they are dead. So buying pictures, sculpture, keeps the wolf from the door, where buying a print or visiting a gallery does'nt. There is something special about an origonal work too.
I know this is really getting off the subject
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
I'm pretty sure bottleneck wasn't arguing that we should all steal books. His point was that the means of reproduction are relatively unimportant to the actual aesthetic experience, which in the case of literature is primarily imaginary. With music it is soundwaves in space and some soundwaves are a lot better than others
Of course, with visual art it is a different argument. Personally I think their is a strong case for excellent forgery to bring art from all ages to the public; state subsidised forgery so that in every major city you can see a pretty good copy of a Titian, Goya, Braques, or Whistler.
Of course, with visual art it is a different argument. Personally I think their is a strong case for excellent forgery to bring art from all ages to the public; state subsidised forgery so that in every major city you can see a pretty good copy of a Titian, Goya, Braques, or Whistler.
bottleneck
pfm Member
Hi David
I'm in complete agreement with you re: art.
You are however talking to the son of an artist, and someone with a passion for art.
Whilst I love art, I feel much the same way about ''original art'' shown in most high street galeries as I do Diana Krall or Michael Buble.
High street original art is art for the masses - individually produced 'pap' with little artistic content.
A painting of a cat, a painting of a twee cottage. Children playing idylically in a field. Pass the sick-bucket please.
It takes time and effort to find good original art, just as it does music. You need to move away from Radio 1! (I say to no-one in particular, just the world at large)
My reference to galleries - well there is no way we could see an original Matisse for example without going (free) to a gallery.
bottleneck
pfm Member
On copies of art, I think (for me personally) it would be a shame.
During a recent trip to Melbourne I visited several galeries. Their equivalent of the Tate had a predominance of Aboriginal and other Australian art. I felt that this was right and proper, a reflection of the time and place that is modern Australia.
Melbourne's galleries showing European and global art were by comparison dissapointing to someone familiar with European galleries. Rightly so, and a reminder to me of which continent I was in.
Another example - the Orangerie in Paris. Built for, and designed from the outset to hold a panaromic 360 degree view of Monet's gardens. Where else could or should it be than in Paris, where you can actually visit the gardens themselves?
Anyway, back to hifi.. !
During a recent trip to Melbourne I visited several galeries. Their equivalent of the Tate had a predominance of Aboriginal and other Australian art. I felt that this was right and proper, a reflection of the time and place that is modern Australia.
Melbourne's galleries showing European and global art were by comparison dissapointing to someone familiar with European galleries. Rightly so, and a reminder to me of which continent I was in.
Another example - the Orangerie in Paris. Built for, and designed from the outset to hold a panaromic 360 degree view of Monet's gardens. Where else could or should it be than in Paris, where you can actually visit the gardens themselves?
Anyway, back to hifi.. !
Just a quick note before we return. I quite agree aboutthe c...p you get in most galleries, particularly provincial ones. Just lurid beach scenes andlandscapes.
I love going to end of year student shows at Art Schools. My other source is Russia. My wife is Russian and trained as an artist. The talent there is staggering and 19C pictures can be bought very cheaply. Her best friend Kolya a Professor at the Applied art institute in St Petersburgh has a number of 12th to 15th century Icons, he pulled out of Rubbish tips in the communist era!
bottleneck
pfm Member
Hi Cav.
Yes, you can be trained as an artist. My father aswell as being an artist was head of department and tutor at a University teaching Art.
The reason high street art is unlikely to be a masterpiece in a hundred years is partly due to the quantity of it's production - you are looking at an item that has been produced by the artist in a multiple run of copies, and partly due to the artistic quality of the item (which admitedly is based on opinion)
High end hifi should be along the lines of the arts and crafts movement in the 1930s. Basically if you have the money, you should commission a unique piece for your home. If you have the money, you can find someone to design and build you a bespoke dining table. Why are speakers any different? If I was spending mega money on speakers, i'd be after a bespoke item, tailored to my room, my music taste etc.
I worked for Garrard in the mid 70s. The component/assembly cost had to be about 10% of retail to make a profit. At that time Garrard were looking into supplying complete systems like Pioneer and Technics who were taking over the market by insisting that if dealers wanted to stock the amps they had to sell the TT as well. OEMs were selling amps, cassette decks and so forth, which could be badged Garrard, for about 15% of what the Pioneer badged version was discounted at in the UK at the time.
The biggest margin was the dealer's, to allow a discount, which every punter expects.
Cars are the same. The manufacturing and assembly cost of the car make I know about (no names, but probably typical) is 10% of th retail price.
The extra costs which have to be covered are mainly R&D, engineering and tooling costs, then there are marketing costs and margins.
IME the room, and where the speakers are located in it, are so important that unless you are in a position to optimise these installing a high end system would be a waste of money.
As far as hearing the difference is concerned I can, and I would imagine most people could. I own several pairs of speakers, the better ones being LS3/5a, Harbeth P3ES, Yamaha NS1000, Proac EBS and Goldmund Epilog 1&2.
They are in different rooms normally but I have compared (obviously...)
The Goldmunds are by a country mile the best. The difference is not subtle it is huge in every important way.