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£17,250

An original unupgraded 30 year old LP12 still
murders a gyrodek.


I don't know if a 30yo LP12 'murders' a Gyro. What I do know is that a 30+ yo LP12 is still capable of blowing my socks off. Cirkus and Valhalla have come and stayed and not a lot of money has been spent. Does anyone need to spend thousands on a TT to get great sound? Only if they are sick in the head, I think.

Mr Tibbs
 
I don't know if a 30yo LP12 'murders' a Gyro. What I do know is that a 30+ yo LP12 is still capable of blowing my socks off. Cirkus and Valhalla have come and stayed and not a lot of money has been spent. Does anyone need to spend thousands on a TT to get great sound? Only if they are sick in the head, I think.

Mr Tibbs

This talk of one turntable 'murdering' another one reminds me of an episode of
Columbo, where an ADC turntable is used as a murder weapon.
 
I don't know if a 30yo LP12 'murders' a Gyro. What I do know is that a 30+ yo LP12 is still capable of blowing my socks off. Cirkus and Valhalla have come and stayed and not a lot of money has been spent. Does anyone need to spend thousands on a TT to get great sound? Only if they are sick in the head, I think.

Mr Tibbs

Well, that's certainly broadminded and understanding of you, Mr T.
 
The issue is not hanging a subchassis from springs, but the failure to mount the motor on the subchassis. I am quite certain, with modern motors, the LP12 would be significantly improved by a redesign incorporating the motor on the sub-chassis.

I would challenge whether spending a lot more actually produces better engineering which solves the problem better. In most cases it does not.

It is that suspension design which causes one (but far from the only) of the LP12's most significant problems - suspension drift. I do agree with you about the motor as well, incidentally.

My experience of the SME20/3 since late last year is that spending more certainly does produce much better outcomes - but that's an equation I would not necessarily expect others to feel the same about.

Presumably, though, that does mean that I and lots of owners of multi £000 decks are 'sick in the head', as the delightful Mr Tibbs puts it. If that means that I'm supporting the industry while enjoying my music more, then I guess sick I must be.
 
It is that suspension design which causes one (but far from the only) of the LP12's most significant problems - suspension drift. I do agree with you about the motor as well, incidentally.

Do you mean drifting out of "tune" or movement of the suspension while playing a record? My LP12 was set up in 2012, it is has never been moved and is still perfectly set up.
 
If your funds are limited then getting the best possible sound for the price you can afford is pretty much essential. If you're minted then whether the deck costs fifteen grand or twenty five is academic, you just buy the one you fancy the most. It may be because you think it sounds best or it may be to impress your mates, I don't think the manufacturer is going to argue, they just make sure the price and the imagery support your view. Not really an enthusiasts market though.

I think that while the original LP12 was aimed at the enthusiast it has somewhere along the line been hijacked to support the 'lifestyle' marketing that most top end (or would be top end) companies need to survive. I'm not complaining though as the minted buyers have ensured that the manufacturer continues to make spares and upgrades for the remaining enthusiasts albeit at sometimes ridiculous prices (drive belt anyone?).
 
support the 'lifestyle' marketing that most top end (or would be top end) companies need to survive. I'm not complaining though as the minted buyers have ensured that the manufacturer continues to make spares and upgrades for the remaining enthusiasts albeit at sometimes ridiculous prices (drive belt anyone?).

This is frankly the key. The manufacturers are doing their best to survive. With the collapse of the traditional market they are increasingly producing/choosing to invest in "statement" products with price tags that most of their historical customer base will not, or can not, afford. This is not unique to Linn or Naim, pick most manufacturers that were selling mid and high end kit 20 years ago and the chances are, if they are still in business, that they have such statement products in their repertoirs.

I have an LP12 and it is the best deck I've heard (Orbe/SME V is as good). Would I pay £17k for one? Absolutely not. But then I wouldn't pay that for any piece of hifi kit even though I currently could.
 
I don't blame them. It keeps the brand in the news and creates the ultimate high end image. Most audiophiles and others would wish these companies to survive if not thrive.
 
I don't blame them. It keeps the brand in the news and creates the ultimate high end image. Most audiophiles and others would wish these companies to survive if not thrive.

Absolutely. Let's face it, if they relied on the constituents of this forum for their sales they would all have gone bust. The last new bit of kit I bought was probably 5 years ago or more. Before that 10 years ago.
 
This is frankly the key. The manufacturers are doing their best to survive. With the collapse of the traditional market they are increasingly producing/choosing to invest in "statement" products with price tags that most of their historical customer base will not, or can not, afford. This is not unique to Linn or Naim, pick most manufacturers that were selling mid and high end kit 20 years ago and the chances are, if they are still in business, that they have such statement products in their repertoirs.

I have an LP12 and it is the best deck I've heard (Orbe/SME V is as good). Would I pay £17k for one? Absolutely not. But then I wouldn't pay that for any piece of hifi kit even though I currently could.

Your last point is interesting because back in 1990 I could afford the top spec LP12/Lingo/Ekos/Troika and I owned this set up and a few years later had the cirkus fitted.

But now if I wanted an LP12 set up, the top spec is so far out of reach, Linn are very obviously targeting a different customer these days not riff raff like myself.
 
I think that while the original LP12 was aimed at the enthusiast it has somewhere along the line been hijacked to support the 'lifestyle' marketing that most top end (or would be top end) companies need to survive.

Yes exactly, this is it. Linn, like Naim (and many others) could bimble along true to their roots and remain small niche outfits (alongside newer manufacturers) but they have rare opportunity that no newcomer to market has - heritage and history. They use this to differentiate themselves and sieze a bigger market share - who wouldn't? This is achieved by deliberately promoting themselves are 'masters in their art' with one of the ways of doing this being creating statement products at stratospheric prices/rarity that (it is hoped) connect them to the 'state of the art'. Another way is by association - to existing prestige brands e.g. Bentley, Aston Martin etc.

Of course what they never want is for any proper double-blind testing of their products - that would short circuit all the smoke and mirrors and expectation bias that is their lifeblood.

It's worth reflecting on what you buy your equipment for, is it really about (access to) music or is it more about lovely shiny boxes, milled chunky metal, or the warm fuzzy feeling of brand-alignment or aspiration? Both are absolutely fine and people can of course spend their money how they wish, but (as in all areas of life) honesty is the key.

D
 
But now if I wanted an LP12 set up, the top spec is so far out of reach, Linn are very obviously targeting a different customer these days not riff raff like myself.

The current prices for top LP12 reflect the dwindling market at the extremes and tooling costs for small numbers production. I had a Cirkusdream (new predictive text word!) or even an upgraded LP12 with Cirkus mod. They sold like hot cakes in the early ninetees, comparitively speaking.

Traded it for Pink Triangle Anniversary I've had ever since. Just preferred it's less fussy set up ie you don't need a dealer. Great decks though.
 
The current prices for top LP12 reflect the dwindling market at the extremes and tooling costs for small numbers production. I had a Cirkusdream (new predictive text word!) or even an upgraded LP12 with Cirkus mod. They sold like hot cakes in the early ninetees, comparitively speaking.

Traded it for Pink Triangle Anniversary I've had ever since. Just preferred it's less fussy set up ie you don't need a dealer. Great decks though.

They are very good, I sold my Linn and got a Voyd.5 which had a similar tone and balance to the Anniversary and like the Pink easier to set up and maintain.
 
Perhaps all those moaning about costs and Linn and the like should go read the alternative thread on stuff made or owned by the Chinese !!
As far as I'm concerned the LP12 is one of the least life style items in their range and is still used and supported by enthusiasts... Is also far from dwindling if my dealers workload is anything to go by....
Yes it's expensive, more so now, but no other bit of kit has offered the chance to evolve the spec you own over as many years as it takes to save and pay for it.
Making it the only 17k deck I can afford, because I've spread the cost over many years and upgrade steps.
Swapping every few years to the latest flavour of the month deck would cost more and involvement just as big single purchases etc...then have no continuity in sound and performance.

We as customers haves caused this with our demand for ever cheaper goods and throw away approach to electronics... Hence the cheap imports, where else could UK manufactures go if not upwards ? ... We got what we deserve sadly... A case of pay up or shut up....
 
From my experience the LP12 can be very good indeed, but Linn appeared to have suffered from some fundamental and significant production/quality issues late70's through 80', significant enough to warrant the term "the old fruit box".
 
Perhaps all those moaning about costs and Linn and the like should go read the alternative thread on stuff made or owned by the Chinese !!
As far as I'm concerned the LP12 is one of the least life style items in their range and is still used and supported by enthusiasts... Is also far from dwindling if my dealers workload is anything to go by....
Yes it's expensive, more so now, but no other bit of kit has offered the chance to evolve the spec you own over as many years as it takes to save and pay for it.
Making it the only 17k deck I can afford, because I've spread the cost over many years and upgrade steps.
Swapping every few years to the latest flavour of the month deck would cost more and involvement just as big single purchases etc...then have no continuity in sound and performance.

We as customers haves caused this with our demand for ever cheaper goods and throw away approach to electronics... Hence the cheap imports, where else could UK manufactures go if not upwards ? ... We got what we deserve sadly... A case of pay up or shut up....


Very fair points there.
 
Yes indeed, but from the inside...

...rattle it enough and one of us might let you out...

Must : Do : Better

Seriously, are you trying to suggest it's sane to spend 17Ks on a few of hundred's worth of hardware?

If so there are saner locked up.

edit; insert smiley.

We're not taking about world peace here.

Mr Tibbs
 
Must : Do : Better

Seriously, are you trying to suggest it's sane to spend 17Ks on a few of hundred's worth of hardware?

If so there are saner locked up.

edit; insert smiley.

We're not taking about world peace here.

Mr Tibbs

Must : Learn : To : Think : Objectively : And : Realise : That : There : Are : Other : Opinions

Where does 'sanity' come into most hobbies?

edit; tick 'ignore' box
 


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